It is currently Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:25 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #1 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:48 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 211
Location: Russia
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 38
Rank: 3p
GD Posts: 300
KGS: breakfast
Tommorow at 8.30 AM we will hape Appeal comittee meeting

We just had the same episode as in Leksand-2008. My opponent Rob van
Zeist lost the game on time, because Ing clocks were not talking.

I had the same story in the last round in Sweden (with Park Chonwook) and the referee told me that it's my own responsibility to check clocks sound. So, I lost that game.

Today the referee made the decision to continue (I lost on territory)

I heard about 2 cases in Sweden EGC-2008 from
http://homepage.mac.com/bjornwendsjo/go/egc2008/7.pdf

If you saw such episodes on other tournaments, please describe them here

_________________
Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Go news: http://gosensations.com/
Insei League on KGS: http://insei-league.com/
Insei League on DGS: http://dgs.insei-league.com/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #2 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:59 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 643
Location: Munich, Germany
Liked others: 115
Was liked: 101
Rank: KGS 3k
KGS: LiKao / Loki
Personally I prefer the player not losing when his clock malfunctions. But a consistent ruling should be worked out so they don't decide differently each time.

_________________
Sanity is for the weak.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #3 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:03 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 196
Liked others: 31
Was liked: 12
Rank: tygem 5d
GD Posts: 259
KGS: LovroKlc
On a tournament as important as the EGC in a game as important as this onethis should not happen. Once I lost on tima in one tournament here in Croatia. We decided to continue the game. If my oppponent lost that way, I would let him continue. Only maybe if that opponent was some rules expert, always talking about rules. Than, I would gladly take the win.

_________________
Image


This post by LovroKlc was liked by: richardamullens
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #4 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:16 am 
Oza

Posts: 2254
Liked others: 1170
Was liked: 537
Li Kao wrote:
Personally I prefer the player not losing when his clock malfunctions.

But did the clock malfunction? Or was the sound turned down/off?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #5 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:31 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 211
Location: Russia
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 38
Rank: 3p
GD Posts: 300
KGS: breakfast
Sound was on minimum possible volume, but it was possible to notice it. Rob already played 30+ moves on byoyomi

_________________
Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Go news: http://gosensations.com/
Insei League on KGS: http://insei-league.com/
Insei League on DGS: http://dgs.insei-league.com/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #6 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:06 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 3
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: EGF 3k
I believe that during the EGC this incident has happened a few times. I saw someone losing on time on his first byo-yomi period because the sound was low and he didn't notice.
He accepted his loss on time.
(but was losing on the board anyway)

I almost lost a game myself the same way (noticed I had entered byo-yomi 4 sec before the end of the 20 sec period... just enough time to play a random move).

The players are free to set the clock sound as they like (volume, language) and it's their responsibility to check the volume and the time.
Once the time has ran out, the game is lost, there's no discussion here to me.

Furthermore, if it wasn't Mr van Zeijst's first move in byo-yomi, I don't understand why there's a discussion. He knew he was in byo-yomi and should have turned up the volume or checked the time.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #7 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:17 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 47
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 11
GD Posts: 140
I agree that this sort of thing should not happen in such an important game. But what to do about it, how can it be avoided?

In my opinion the latest version of the Ing timers is not as good as the first ones, where the sound couldn't be turned down completely. It's dangerous that the clocks can be completely silent. Also it's more practical if the players themselves are responsible for checking the clock status - there are other things besides sound that could be set wrong. But in such case it is also better if the players set up the clocks to begin with, rather than someone doing it for them. On the other hand, this is probably feasible only if there is just one kind of clock being used, in this year's EGC there were two or mor kinds of clocks and one cannot expect everybody to be familiar with all of them.
How many different kinds of clocks will be used in next year's EGC if there are more than 1000 participants (as the organisers expect)?

I lost my first game at the EGC in Tampere on time myself, in the first place because the clock was unexpectedly to me totally silent. I think that I absent mindedly had turned the sound down to zero myself, being used to the older style clocks, where the sound never disappears completely. As I recall I was also confused about the byo-yomi length, since there wasn't any info on that in the papers that had been handed out, and the visual display on the clock was unfamiliar to me. No big deal to me, I certainly didn't play for any prize or title, but a bit annoying and it would be nice if things like this could be avoided.

It will be interesting to see what the Appeals committee says in this case.

cheers,
H.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #8 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:27 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 211
Location: Russia
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 38
Rank: 3p
GD Posts: 300
KGS: breakfast
tmge wrote:
I believe that during the EGC this incident has happened a few times. I saw someone losing on time on his first byo-yomi period because the sound was low and he didn't notice.
He accepted his loss on time.
(but was losing on the board anyway)


In Tampere? Or earlier?
Can you tell more details please, including tournament name and players names

_________________
Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Go news: http://gosensations.com/
Insei League on KGS: http://insei-league.com/
Insei League on DGS: http://dgs.insei-league.com/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #9 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:35 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 15
Location: Sweden
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: EGF 4 kyu
GD Posts: 8
KGS: boywing
I think it is the organizers responsibility that the clock is not broken.
Then it is the players responsibility to adjust the sound to their preference.

A lot of players choose to turn off the sound.
If they loose on time it's their own fault.

_________________
Boywing [4k?]
Go for Life

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #10 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:00 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 350
Location: London UK
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 19
Rank: EGF 12kyu
DGS: willemien
I don't know what happened

The rules say :

EGF GENERAL TOURNAMENT RULES,(Updated June 2010) http://www.eurogofed.org/egf/tourrules.htm
5 TIMING RULES,
3 Other overtime systems:

Quote:
Where Japanese Byoyomi is used together with a timekeeper, a timepiece is set to the byoyomi time. The timekeeper counts down the last 10 seconds, and a move must be completed within the byoyomi time period.

Where Japanese Byoyomi is used together with a digital clock, a move must be completed within the byoyomi time period.


a problem is that the sound setting itself sometimes can be part of good sportmanship.
(Is it reasonable to turn the sound on knowing how it can have a negative influence on players on nearby boards, also is it allowable for players to turn the volume up as it is changing a clock setting)

Also who mentioned (called) the time out
What happened after the time out.

Now it this will be regulated by the EGF rules


I had a look at the AGAnament rules but they also don't require that Byoyomi pronounced load and clearly it even says at

AGA Tournament Regulations (2005)
VI. Administration of Play
E. Timekeeping.
14. Overtime
b. Japanese.
Quote:
5) The "reading seconds" provision of the Ing chess/go clock is an
acceptable way to carry out this method of overtime.







Looking forward to the future:
How will the new European Professional Go League decide in these situations?
(and needs this organisation its own appeals and rules commision?)

_________________
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #11 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:35 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 702
Liked others: 165
Was liked: 104
Rank: German 2 dan
I guess that the clocks need a soundcheck button.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #12 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:27 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8288
Liked others: 1423
Was liked: 1341
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
In my opinion, if you lose on time, you lose on time. Whether the clock makes a sound doesn't seem relevant.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #13 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:56 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 702
Liked others: 165
Was liked: 104
Rank: German 2 dan
Kirby wrote:
In my opinion, if you lose on time, you lose on time. Whether the clock makes a sound doesn't seem relevant.


Have you ever tried to play a moderately slow game on KGS without time warning (no beeps, no blinking)?

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #14 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:03 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8288
Liked others: 1423
Was liked: 1341
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Harleqin wrote:
Kirby wrote:
In my opinion, if you lose on time, you lose on time. Whether the clock makes a sound doesn't seem relevant.


Have you ever tried to play a moderately slow game on KGS without time warning (no beeps, no blinking)?


I do not use sound on KGS, but I always use byo-yomi. The byo-yomi always blinks, I think, so I cannot say that I have.

However, the reason I have this feeling is that, while some people might get burned in the short term, people will learn to be more careful of their time. The time is there for a reason.

If we make some fancy rules that allow for play to continue after time has really elapsed, it may allow for a player to develop a strategy to take advantage of this when he has to take a lot of time to think (eg. "If I let time run out, I receive penalty X, but at least I can work out this difficult tsumego problem.").

I don't think it's beneficial to make adjustments to the rules for an issue like clock time.

With a good argument, my opinion could be changed, but I haven't been able to think of one, yet.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #15 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:26 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 399
Location: Shanghai, China
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 35
Rank: EGF 2d KGS 3d
GD Posts: 353
KGS: freegame
Quote:
The time is there for a reason.


In a tournament like the EGC the goal is to find the strongest Go player.
Time is of course an element in this, but should not be the dominant factor.

It is my understanding that not playing in time in byoyomi means you played a "pass" in most tournament in The Netherlands. This seems like a fair penalty to me. This is also announced at the start of the tournaments, including a warning about the clocks sound. but I don't think that there is a rule like this in the EGF/ING rules that are used at the EGC.

I think therefore that according to the rules Dinerchtein had indeed the right to claim the win. But if doing so was good sportsmanship is another matter (this depends on the situation/moment, something that is very hard to judge about without having been there to see it happen).

_________________
Laurens
Go school: freegame's Teaching School
Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.


This post by freegame was liked by: Ingo Althofer
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #16 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:45 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 91
Location: Europe
Liked others: 72
Was liked: 20
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
KGS: cockroach, hobosaurus
breakfast wrote:
Sound was on minimum possible volume, but it was possible to notice it. Rob already played 30+ moves on byoyomi


I think that you have a legitimate grievance. Also you should expect the rules to be applied consistently from year to year.

I might have some sympathy with the referee's decision if it was obvious that you were way behind - though I still think it is wrong.



I lost a game at a recent tournament (Amsterdam 2009 I think) because the clock was talking Chinese, and at another tournament the conflict with my opponent started before the game began when he wanted to turn the sound right off.

I think that it is always a pity when the referee is called upon. In the instance you describe, your opponent would understand that he had lost on time and should accept that - however unpalatable it may feel for him.

At a recent tournament a referee became involved when he found out that two players agreed to continue when one of the flags had dropped. My belief is that the referee should mind his own business when there is no dispute between the players and there is no evidence of any nefarious intent - or objection from other players. It is, after all, only a game.


This post by richardamullens was liked by: Bartleby
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #17 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:30 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 481
Location: Germany
Liked others: 191
Was liked: 90
Rank: Tygem 1D
GD Posts: 325
breakfast wrote:
Sound was on minimum possible volume, but it was possible to notice it. Rob already played 30+ moves on byoyomi

But the sound was not hearable, was it? Does minimum possible volume mean that the clock was actually muted? Or do you mean it was possible to notice because Rob already played in byoyomi and so he should have noticed that there was no sound?

_________________
Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #18 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:31 am 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 174
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 53
Rank: EGF 5 dan
GD Posts: 29
Appeals Committee Decision 7th August 2010

The Appeals Committee ruled that the players are responsible for managing the clock setting and taking care of their time. The digital display clearly shows the difference between the main time and the byoyomi time. The referee’s decision was wrong. The game result is ruled in favour of Dinerchtein.

We recommend that decision is referred to the EGF Rules Commission and furthermore we recommend that these clocks are not used in EGF tournament play, at least for the top boards.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #19 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:50 am 
Beginner

Posts: 3
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: EGF 3k
breakfast wrote:
tmge wrote:
I believe that during the EGC this incident has happened a few times. I saw someone losing on time on his first byo-yomi period because the sound was low and he didn't notice.
He accepted his loss on time.
(but was losing on the board anyway)

In Tampere? Or earlier?
Can you tell more details please, including tournament name and players names


Sorry for answering late.
It was in Tampere, in the main tournament but I don't know the players' names.
I just happened to witness it. The players agreed without calling the referee.

The decision of the appeal commitee seems like the only wise decision to me.
The problem of these clocks should be adressed. Maybe just putting a warning on the clocks saying "Remember to set the sound level and the language before the game starts" would be enough.
Many people at the EGC were using these clocks for the first time.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Dinerchtein vs van Zeist
Post #20 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:48 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 493
Liked others: 80
Was liked: 71
Rank: sdk
GD Posts: 175
I just came back home from Tampere. This problem with the clock happened several times. I know of two other examples, once a 2dan friend lost a game like that and once in my favour in the weekend tournament :)

If I am not misinformed, also Catalin lost a game like that but I don't know against whom.

I think it would be more sportmannish to give my opponent a byo-yomi period and continue the game, but in my case that was the last (fifth) game of the weekend tournament and I had won all the other four games. So I really wanted to win that game as well just for having won all my games in a tournament for the first time :) We called the referee and he told that I won on time. I don't have a very clean conscious about that but it was not my fault either. I still has 16 minutes left and if you think that time is also a part of the game, then .... blablabla ...

_________________
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group