Life In 19x19 :: PGETC with Skype

The european online league, or the PGETC as we all know it, has moved to enforce playing with Skype.
Or more specifically, Skype with sitting in front of the computer like it was a real life tournament, in full view of camera, no headphones, no telephone, not leaving your chair unless you explain to the opponent were you're going first.

For those playing, I'd like to know:
1 - Are you in favour of that?
2 - Do you think it will stop cheating?

I recognize some players have cheated, but I don't feel happy with this new rule for a number of reasons:
I don't feel that anyone consulted the players
It seems to assume we want a professional approach, rather than just enjoy playing/competing
The suggested mode of play breaks totally with the environment I've played in before - an example is me disappearing for 5m to do something for the kids
To my mind, it doesn't prohibit cheating, certainly not if you know how to code
I assume, it also means you can't watch the other games without arousing suspicion

I imagine others will have a totally opposing view.

Author:	Javaness2 [ Tue Sep 24, 2024 5:37 am ]
Post subject:	PGETC with Skype
The european online league, or the PGETC as we all know it, has moved to enforce playing with Skype. Or more specifically, Skype with sitting in front of the computer like it was a real life tournament, in full view of camera, no headphones, no telephone, not leaving your chair unless you explain to the opponent were you're going first. For those playing, I'd like to know: 1 - Are you in favour of that? 2 - Do you think it will stop cheating? I recognize some players have cheated, but I don't feel happy with this new rule for a number of reasons: I don't feel that anyone consulted the players It seems to assume we want a professional approach, rather than just enjoy playing/competing The suggested mode of play breaks totally with the environment I've played in before - an example is me disappearing for 5m to do something for the kids To my mind, it doesn't prohibit cheating, certainly not if you know how to code I assume, it also means you can't watch the other games without arousing suspicion I imagine others will have a totally opposing view.

Author:	kvasir [ Tue Sep 24, 2024 8:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
What I understood last year, from Martin, was that video monitoring would start with league A in last years season (I don't know if this did happen) and not move onto other leagues until 2025. That is the last thing I remember hearing about this. We haven't received an invitation for the tournament but we did receive assurances that this would be forthcoming. Maybe invitations were already sent out for other leagues, if so it wouldn't be something entirely unexpected if skype was mentioned. I, personally, think asking the players to open a skype call to each other is fairly reasonable. Seeing your opponent is an important element of knowing that you are playing a fair game. For one thing you can see if you are playing the intended opponent. It is also part of a normal tournament experience to interact with your opponent and a call will add some interaction that was missing. So from my own perspective this should be a good thing in the long run. However, if it is true that the intention is that skype calls will be required in the season that is about to start, then I think the announcement needed to come much earlier. Maybe it has been overlooked how difficult it can be to explain this to some of the players. I know because I talked it over with our players last year; they were less than enthusiastic. I don't know how the conversation will go down when it is so much more immediate.

Author:	xela [ Tue Sep 24, 2024 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
This is hypothetical for me: I'm not in Europe. I think having Skype on will enhance the feeling of playing a real person, so it's probably a good thing on balance. However: Javaness2 wrote: not leaving your chair unless you explain to the opponent were you're going first. This part would be a problem for me in a long game. If I sit still for long periods of time, my risk of back pain goes up a lot. In a real life tournament, I'm often standing up between moves, stretching, pacing around. If I can get up silently without a word, it's not a problem. But if I'm required to speak to my opponent 20 times in one game, I think it's an unwelcome distraction for both of us. And no, it's not going to prevent cheating, just make it slightly less easy. For a high stakes tournament, people shouldn't be allowed to play from home full stop. If you can't get everyone to the same city, then players should travel to a local venue where someone can supervise them. To my mind, online from home is fine for amateur tournaments which are for fun/social/learning. (If you're cheating but you're still rated below 6 dan, then you're not even good at cheating! Why bother in this context?) Just not if there's prize money or professional status at stake.

Author:	Javaness2 [ Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
I generally just sub these days, so it is semi-hypothetical for me too. It's interesting what you say about feeling that Skype would aid the feeling of playing a real person. I'm not actually sure that I'd really want to keep Skype in view during the game. I generally max the board size to block out distractions.

Author:	Harleqin [ Wed Sep 25, 2024 3:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
For me, it's rather hypothetical too, as I'm not participating in any online playing right now. But I have been somewhat involved in discussions and measures to detect and prevent cheating before, so I have ruminated this a bit. My view can perhaps be summarized like this: > It is impossible to reliably prevent cheating, but we can strive to produce an atmosphere and environment where people feel inclined not to do it. With respect to online games with cameras: - Adding a camera view to see your opponent during the game can improve the empathic connection. That's good. - Using camera footage to try to identify suspicious behaviour will destroy the emphatic connection, disturb the player, and destroy the atmosphere. That's bad.

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Author:	quantumf [ Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
Javaness2 wrote: The european online league, or the PGETC as we all know it, has moved to enforce playing with Skype. Or more specifically, Skype with sitting in front of the computer like it was a real life tournament, in full view of camera, no headphones, no telephone, not leaving your chair unless you explain to the opponent were you're going first. For those playing, I'd like to know: 1 - Are you in favour of that? 2 - Do you think it will stop cheating? I recognize some players have cheated, but I don't feel happy with this new rule for a number of reasons: I don't feel that anyone consulted the players It seems to assume we want a professional approach, rather than just enjoy playing/competing The suggested mode of play breaks totally with the environment I've played in before - an example is me disappearing for 5m to do something for the kids To my mind, it doesn't prohibit cheating, certainly not if you know how to code I assume, it also means you can't watch the other games without arousing suspicion I imagine others will have a totally opposing view. I think you've captured our (South Africa's) feeling succinctly. We are unhappy about the Skype requirement, playing something this competitive/serious is not something we signed up for (and were not consulted about). While I prefer playing over the board, the online format permits many things - observing other games, making a cup of coffee, playing out the moves on a physical board, playing other online games when your opponent takes too long, taking phone calls, listening to music, chatting to your spouse/kids, etc. I may not use all or even any of these luxuries, but having them available is great. Even if a significant % of my opponents are cheating in some way, I'd still prefer a model where I trust that most are not. My understanding of the Skype camera is that it is there as a recording in case of a cheating concern. It's not intended to provide some proxy of real life, AFAIK.

Author:	Javaness2 [ Sat Oct 12, 2024 6:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
I read that Denmark withdrew from the league because of the new rule.

Author:	Mike Novack [ Fri Oct 18, 2024 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
Not having a say in EGF affairs, but want to comment on something I haven't seen raised. Being able to see your opponent (and be seen in return) reintroduces elements of face to face play beyond empathy. It is potentially a source of information about the game itself. Some of us have good "poker faces" while others of us cannot avoid Tells" and that is legitimately part of the game. Since I used expressions from poker, will continue with that as an example. Do you not see that the game is different if the only information is what your cards are and the bets vs sitting around the table. A person might be of very different strength playing one way vs the other. Of course in my example, successful bluffing plays a large role in the game. But even with a full information game like go, knowing if the opponent was surprised/perturbed by your last move (unable to hide that) conveys useful information. Classic reference of course "The ear-reddening game"

Author:	gennan [ Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
As far as I understood, this was already a requirement last year (although the EGF notification to team captains about this requirement only came after the teams registration process was nearing completion, I had heard it was coming beforehand) and I didn't apply to join the Dutch PGETC team because of it. Also this year I didn't apply. My impression is that these requirements made it more difficult to gather a team. I'm also a youth manager for the Dutch go association and last year I decided I won't coach a Dutch youth team for the PYGETC (Pandanet Youth Go European Team Championships) which has similar requirements. So they'd have to find someone else for that job. But the Dutch go association also seems less than enthousiastic (to put it mildly) about requiring youth players to record themselves on video. Though I don't think it matters much for the EGF if we participate or not, because Dutch youth is not a top contender anyway. I think the argument of allowing for an emphatic connection has some value, but in the end I think it's more an attempt to sell this as something else than just an anti-cheating measure. I think these video requirements will only prevent more naieve forms of cheating, so I see these measures as mostly gesture politics. Of course everyone (adults) can decide for themselves if they accept these conditions, but I'll pass.

Author:	quantumf [ Sat Oct 19, 2024 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PGETC with Skype
Javaness2 wrote: I read that Denmark withdrew from the league because of the new rule. South Africa almost withdrew due to the difficulty putting a team together. We've had to call up on our Korea-based member just to get four in the team, I expect we'll be a board or two short for some of our upcoming games. In terms of the social aspect, well, perhaps it will get easier with time. I didn't find the first round particularly fun. It was more awkward than anything, it's obvious that the purpose is for anti-cheating so it's a bit difficult to relax. Not to mention that it is in the evening, so things like having supper, putting kids to bed, etc. are now on camera.

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