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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Go
Post #21 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:12 pm 
Gosei
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...Assuming that upload stays working...

I had to deal with some things that did not leave time for go for a bit. This is my first game in a while.

I got a bit slack as the game continued. I love this kind of game with the two massive, solidified frameworks in a close game.

:b67: should have been a connection.

This game probably should have spawned dogfights.


Edit:
Importantly, :w90: simply did not live at all. It somehow looked reminiscent of a different shape that was alive, I guess?

Perhaps :b61: could have connected already.

Of course, the earlier part of the game is more interesting but more difficult.

Taking issues in order.

:b9: may have been a mistake in direction, and could have been eg. D14 to stop white's big moyo and play a more territorial game.

:b13: seems a mistake. It strengthens white on top for not enough (albeit it sort of serendipitously worked out later). Also, those two stones did not need help. Actually I would like to "have" to take the corner later.
- Instead, perhaps R10 or 9 directly. It looks like a nice move.

:b17: I disliked when I played it, and I think it was wrong now. Perhaps D18 was more possible, because I would like to damage top. An invasion does seem necessary. Hm.

...That sacrifice debacle worked out somehow and sufficiently, but it wasn't good.

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 Post subject: Still playing rather than being studious
Post #22 Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:30 pm 
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One property of the go hobby is the ability to toggle between studying a lot and playing a lot, I guess.

I'm resisting the urge to label my play as "gimmicky".

Games do become a little more DDK-like ; you must judge situations that are varying degrees out of your depth all about the board while struggling not to keep losing track of the board. Which is good! I don't want to just marshal my existing skill against someone else's but rather, run headfirst into [our] limits.

Then, like DDK games it seems somewhat arbitrary who lost with all the missed opportunities (mostly on the loser's side).

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Go
Post #23 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:06 pm 
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Another win on KGS :
Also, can I just link games from KGS?


I do sometimes lose embarrassingly, especially correspondence games :


:b15: I think black is okay to here.

:b17: Now I think P5 was more consistent (albeit even less territorial). Also fixing the cut immediately feels good.

:b19: Bad aji keshi. Heavy. Rather, P5. White slightly owes a stone but nothing feels good.

:b23: Still trying out playing around here. It's sente and discourages white from taking the corner, but introduces the big white territory/thick moyo on top I occasionally lose from. So-

:b25: I think this contact is a mistake. White is thick with M17, so black can't play strongly. Instead, I think I should play next top left, of which avoiding leads to missing the time to invade. Perhaps C17 3-3 invasion immediately, followed by K14 cap? K14 cap directly ?

:w34: Well placed. Black's mistakes leave no really good answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Go
Post #24 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:03 pm 
Gosei
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Finding time for go seems to be no problem when I have physics work to do.

I'm posting victories not just because they're exciting, but also because the standard advice - review your losses - seems to ignore the positive idea of "seeing what has worked (and why?)", which I think is especially important for trying to stick to a specific style.



:w8: seemed perhaps slack.

Happy with my fuseki, though perhaps :b23: could have been the safer R8.

:w44: , at least, was gote endgame. Cf. O5.

However, :b45: looks like a candidate for a potentially heavy mistake. Imagine white had simply defended with - P3 N4 N8 and black seems in trouble. Well, perhaps :b45: was important. I would have liked to play a reduction rather than an abject invasion, but perhaps some kind of invasion was called for.

Attacking P7 group did settle a huge top right - and left an avenue for my opponent's game losing mistake later.

Maybe I should have prioritized e7 jump before my opponent's cap.

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Go
Post #25 Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:44 am 
Gosei
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Well, this was a really good idea which I shall try and recapture.

I have gradually segued into playing a bit again lost my first million games and was beaten down to 1k (should make a new account). My rank is so heavy that I have a 9000% attrition rate and I'm still 1k.

Initially I suffered from a bit of opening nihilism (you know, it seems anyone can play anything in the opening and it seems not to matter). However I settled down to consistently playing what I remember as mukai komoku (if possible) and then a Chinese enclosure as black. It was an opening from breakfast's now oldish New Moves (I think).

I really think my idea to stay consistent in openings and joseki is good (because familiarity is a parameter of results).

Utilising this thread I shall recapture my circa 2000 Yamashita style.

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Go
Post #26 Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:57 pm 
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Qualitative description of my last ten games, in reverse order:
My opponent playing black played a deviant sanrensei against my mukai komoku (why not play :b2: facing the 3-4?)
They tried to take three sides of the board at the same time and died everywhere

My opponent playing black took territory for influence in a two space pincer joseki deviation (?), THEN tried to build moyo everywhere, squeezed a lot of toothpaste everywhere and lost without dying anywhere with only 40 points.

My opponent playing black in rotating komoku tried to take left, top, right and bottom in exchange for thickness, and died big in the middle of the board.

My opponent playing white nirensei against my mukai komoku took gote with a wrong direction approach against the wrong 3-4, then tried to live bottom left and seperately left in exchange for thickness, then tried to live top left and died.

My opponent playing white against my mukai komoku micro Chinese enclosed the wrong 4-4, then took bottom, went to live on left, went to live on left again, then tried to keep bottom right and died on bottom.

My opponent playing black against 3-4 4-3 approached and took, split-wise right, middle, left and bottom, bottom left, left again and then top as well (with varying degrees of violence) then died big in late yose while playing from an uninteresting 25 points behind before komi.

I played white in a long game against a facing enclosure. I attempted to occupy left, bottom-left, top (?), top-right, right and bottom in a moyo game and lost by 5.5 points (without komi).


... The last three games are just more uninteresting wins.


The losing player in each case played everywhere, intent on taking whatever points it seemed the other player might get. In, what were found to be, unfavourable exchanges or deaths in each case.

Happily my last (the first mentioned) game was a 2d who agreed to play evenly with me, so KGS has bequeathed 1d upon me again.


The pithy lesson here, I think, is that one must let the opponent have some good moves, because simply trying to play all the opponent's good moves is thin and incoherent.

This moral reminds me of a trend in the Yamashita games I was examining, where moyo strategies always start with a seeming change of direction. In a joseki, one player both takes territory and denies one moyo direction, however creating a new moyo direction (which is then taken).

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Go
Post #27 Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:53 am 
Gosei
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My last two games had a sort of strange symmetry.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . O O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Playing black, W+T (I accepted 5 + 5*20).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O X X X . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Playing white. W+R (100 moves and three more dead groups later).

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Go
Post #28 Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:57 am 
Oza

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Loons wrote:
My last two games had a sort of strange symmetry.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . O O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Playing black, W+T (I accepted 5 + 5*20).


Assuming it's black to play, my instinct is that black should be able to win the capturing race, but reading it all in limited time seems difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Go
Post #29 Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:56 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O X O X O . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . O O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I did think black was one liberty up. It's messy though, right?

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Post #30 Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:27 pm 
Gosei
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Another brace of games. Certainly these 2 dans have put a dent in my winning streak! With proper komi, -12.5 and +2.5 as black. Comments are welcome.

In the loss, I think my J8 was a pass at a critical point, and then my attachment response to L17 was bad. Knight's move instead?




Edit: A cursory look at a database suggests H3 was bad vs say, J5.


Attachments:
yoshi0428-TheBellman.sgf [5.15 KiB]
Downloaded 305 times
Liviu-TheBellman.sgf [5.5 KiB]
Downloaded 304 times

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Post #31 Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:07 pm 
Gosei
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Well, my record since those games is 3-1. My loss was against Zen 2d.

My first game I won with white against a 1d, after a peaceful fuseki my opponent invaded by a wall and died (after a hard fight).

ZenBot2 2d beat me with white the game after. I went for a kill, got cut, and winning an approach ko made my game too hard.

My third game, the first pincer joseki turned into an exciting running fight across the board. I felt like I had the harder fight, but my opponent eventually ran out of time fighting (my) picnic ko for the game. We were both in our last 20 second period for that ko.

Fourth, I got to play my mukai komoku Chinese. The game proceeded peacefully to the end: I made a moyo, white took territory, and we had a pair of intertwined dragons between them. Both dragons took the time to live, and my moyo turned out three points bigger.

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Post #32 Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:25 pm 
Gosei
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I have a theory about fighting plays versus territorial plays. Fighting plays would include taking influence in joseki and playing tough resistances. Territorial plays being 'low risk' options (known invasions, taking territory in joseki).

    Fighting moves have a higher cost than territorial moves
    Fighting moves have a higher reward than territorial moves
    Fighting mistakes are about equally costly to territorial mistakes
    Fighting blunders are more costly than territorial blunders

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Post #33 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:22 pm 
Gosei
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3-1 since.

My loss was interesting: My opponent overplayed in joseki, leaving a one step approach ko in my favour for about forty points and giving me a crazy wall. However I then kind of zoned out and played so passively I lost by twenty points. Those 2ds.

All my wins have been lucky, which is leading me to suspect that there are just a lot of interesting tesuji involved in any calls of life, death and killing. And if you are more likely to find more of them than your opponent, it seems like a viable strategy. I think I tend to play a little thick and slow while most of my opponents play fast, thin and then tough (which favours me).

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Post #34 Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:51 am 
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Playing seemingly under my rank has been a bit underwhelming. I'm not sure whether to continue ballooning those two SGFs or seperating games is better. Certainly the giant SGFs are interesting, however hard to follow (albeit interesting).


An interesting game! I like how black played sente to make white's shape ugly on the left and accepted a huge territory, but after white's ponnuki black's centre group was more of a liability than anything else. I guess the centre-left ko was slightly last-ditch; if white made a few more points in the centre black was behind, but then there were too few ko threats...

Edit: Silly me, no ko.


Attachments:
newGame.sgf [1.15 KiB]
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Post #35 Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:32 am 
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Loons wrote:
    Fighting moves have a higher cost than territorial moves
    Fighting moves have a higher reward than territorial moves
Hi Loons, could you elaborate a little.
How do you measure or quantify this 'cost' and 'reward' ?
Example: is it possible to have some numerical values for the cost and reward for B after this joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O . O . . .
$$ | . O X X X . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Post #36 Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:34 am 
Gosei
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I'm afraid it's to some extent a personal anecdote.

Thick moves that will support fighting will leave one behind in territory.

Fighting someone better prepared for that fight - you have to sacrifice fairly big groups, or give too big a moyo back ...

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Post #37 Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:48 am 
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Loons wrote:
Thick moves that will support fighting will leave one behind in territory.
This seems to be comparing the value of solid territory to the potential (thickness/influence).

Which brings us to (at least) 3 cases:
  • Fighting moves have a higher 'cost'/'reward' than territorial moves;
  • Fighting moves have an equal 'cost'/'reward' as territorial moves;
  • Fighting moves have a lower 'cost'/'reward' than territorial moves

It's interesting your feeling is toward one of the three. :)
Mine is the middle: as long as both sides play perfectly,
the resulting trade between territory and the potential is even.
Example: joseki, locally. :)
But as we know from pro games, sometimes one side will deliberately
choose a result that's inferior locally, but which makes sense globally.

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Post #38 Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:29 pm 
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I mean, one might make a thick move instead of taking five points of territory (-5).

The compensation one might expect is that a later move will be worth perhaps five points more, or that the opponent will 'have' to play five points more conservatively.

So the moves are more precipitous (and seem to have more- variance, I guess). I'm not advancing the idea that higher fighting is more correct, I am rather surprised how well and evenly it works out given there are moments seemingly 5-10 points down. (While seemingly sandbagging 1k-1ds).

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Post #39 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:54 pm 
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One problem I have is that if I play when I'm out of sorts or dead tired, I unequivocally lose. So I'm starting to maintain the self control to only play when I feel in good condition.

Possibly playing PeterN on my Sunday morning (in GMT+12-13).

Opponent let (many, many minutes of) his time run down here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X X O O O X X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . O . . . . X X X . O X . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . O O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . # . # O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . # O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O O O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . x . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . 1 . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

We've just exchanged one through three. My :b1: felt slightly speculative ( :b1: @ :w2: ?) and my :b3: certainly feels opportunistic.

What's even going on in this board though!

I speculate that I'm ahead because my left is thick and I seem to have weird aji everywhere, though I don't like :b1: and :b3: .

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Post #40 Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:52 pm 
Oza

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Loons wrote:
Yamashita's white seems deliberately unpredictable.

4/15 games were nirensei, 4/15 were centre/influence strategies characterized by 5-4/6-4 and tengen. The rest were a mixed bag of 3-4s and more 4-4s. Only in 2/15 games has :w2: been repeated.

His strategy is typically high and fighting despite common exceptions. He has not allowed minichinese, playing the normal counterapproach resistance instead. A recurring joseki occurs when he plays tenuki from a 4-4 approach (eg to deny minichinese).

I thought you might like to have your Yamashita's white collection with the one game that starts in the lower left, reoriented to start in the upper right, like the other games in the same collection.



code, if you're interested
Code:
while read line; do if [[ "$line" =~ \[([a-s])([a-s])\] ]]; then one=$(printf "\x$(printf %x $((212-$(printf "%d" \'${BASH_REMATCH[1]}))))"); two=$(printf "\x$(printf %x $((212-$(printf "%d" \'${BASH_REMATCH[2]}))))"); echo $line | sed -e "s/${BASH_REMATCH[1]}${BASH_REMATCH[2]}/$one$two/g"; else echo "$line"; fi; done < Yamashita-white-4.sgf


Attachments:
File comment: reorient game in lower left to upper right
Yamashita-white-n.sgf [10.8 KiB]
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This post by xed_over was liked by: Loons
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