My Study Journal: Shodan in 800 days?!

globulon · **#21**

Kirby wrote:

I have mixed feelings about having a teacher. I'm a member of the Yunguseng Dojang as well, and I think Inseong's lessons are a lot of fun.

Basically, you'll get what you put into study, whether you have a teacher or not.

The best comparison I can think of at the moment is the navigation system I have in my car. I love the navigation system, because it guides me where I want to go - if I need to go to a new address, just type it in, and it can lead me there. But at the same time, I depend too much on my navigation system sometimes. If I'm in a car that doesn't have a navigation system, I easily get lost. I don't know the streets that well, because I totally trust the navigation system.

The best situation would be if I knew the streets well without the navigation system, and still had the navigation system for situations when I needed it.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, a teacher will point you in the right direction. But keep in mind that you're the driver. If the navigation system goes out, make sure you know the roads well yourself.

That being said, I'd still recommend a teacher. I love being a part of the AYD. But maybe more than for improvement, I enjoy it because it's fun... And you can feel cool about having a navigation system.

I really like this post by Kirby. This is something I have struggled with at times both in chess and go. I have tried lessons for both go and chess. I did find that there seems to be a conflict for me. Even if the desire for a teacher comes from a sincere motivation to work and get better, there seems to be real trade off for me. Somehow even if I am conscious of the issue before hand, there's a feeling that the lessons somehow change my motivation level. I no longer feel "in charge" of my progress in the same way.

This is slightly different from what Kirby expressed but I think for me the two are closely related.

I'm not at all bagging on lessons and I think it's obvious that for many people they can be an amazing investment. But I think this issue does bear some thinking about.

Knotwilg · **#22**

Depending on the type of person you are, you can take a teacher to keep up your motivation level, lay out an educational path, inspire with knowledge or to point out where you were right or wrong in your decision making.

If you find your teacher is taking over the "why" and this reduces your own motivation level because you're intrinsically motivated, then change. Likewise if your teacher is only pointing out "how" but you need an external source of motivation. Not every teacher fits every student.

It's a good idea to figure out why you want a teacher and to discuss this when first discussing matters with a potential teacher.

Most of the people posting their journal here are clearly looking for an external stimulus. They are extraverts, needing (positive) feedback, externalizing their efforts. As I've somewhat crudely stated above, this is a waste of time, except that without it their efforts would probably stall. Hence, most of us should probably be looking for a motivational teacher.

CnP · **#23**

Quote:

Teachers really are popular as a recommendation mmm? I don't know if a group lecture is a good fit for me though. I might enjoy the game reviews. Do you have anyone in mind?

sorry, I should get a teacher myself - I can't recommend anyone from experience. There should be info either on the teacher/lessons section of this forum or on Sensei's library.

oh and from your comment - "you've probably played only 50 games or so" I would say, forget about teachers, computer opponents (and perhaps Go books) and play a couple of hundred games of Go as soon as you can

Jujube · **#24**

This is my second update.

To get a rating on KGS as quickly as possible I played 4 bots. I came out at 10kyu which is a little too high in my opinion.

I played a game on KGS today against an 8kyu, I had 2 stones.

I struggled with the speed of the game. 30 second byo-yomi periods is probably fine, but I found 20 second periods too quick. I also went into byo-yomi quite quickly and seemed to panic a bit.

A brief summary of the game: I came out of the opening well and was on the verge of wining, but middlegame errors allowed the other player to destroy some territory and I lost.

I've added comments to the game, I'd appreciate any amount of time you can spare to be critical and please point out what are my weak areas at this time.

Later today I will do some more tsumego. A short update this week, more next week.

EdLee · **#25**

Hi Jujube,

:w3:

Of course.

:w5:

No problem. Open your mind about the opening.

:w9:

Ditto.

Cut at C16. W ataris C17.
You drop to B16. W blocks at B17.
You atari E16. W connects.
You hane at C13. W ataris B15.
You atari B14. W takes.
You fix your cut at D13 (solid connect or tiger's mouth D12.)
Standard sequence -- the trade for :w9:

not jumping out to D14 or C14.
You get the outside; W gets the corner.
Already worth this game to learn it.

:b16:

This result is no problem for these levels.
But you could've done better -- see :b14:

sequence above.

:b30:

-

Standard bad habit. You force W to live with good shape;
you fix W's weakness for him. Big thank you move.
Locally, if you hit at the vital point S13 yourself, W is dead shape.

:b32:

Notice if you played here directly on :b30:

,
W could not have resisted with :w33:

.
But, thanks to your generous :b30:

-

exchange,
giving W excellent shape, now W could resist with good shape at :w33:

.

Soft. Hane P13.

:w41:

Your note here shows the same bad habit, bad thinking as :b30:

.
Yes, the turn at A (N17) is a big endgame move.
But your eye should be on the vital point L18.
Your current bad habit is to visualize :black:

N17 -

L18
-- which is OK, but instead of rejecting it, you're happy to play it too early, which is not OK --
( Forcing W to live with good shape; exactly the same bad habit as :b30:

-

.)
Instead, aim at the vital point L18 yourself, to kill.
( This bad habit is also evident with your :b38:

-

sequence --
you're not thinking at all about W's weakness L18;
rather, just happy to secure small territory in the opening, like :b30:

.)

Block the other side, Q3. Take cash. You're not building any big moyo here, with :w3:

, etc.

Yes, W has a weakness there. But L3 is probably bigger.

:w63:

W got it. You missed it.

:w71:

Small, slow, too early.

:b72:

Soft. Wrong shape. (Possibly bad habit, too.)
The local move is hane-block B2.
But globally, this is small. The turn at C11 is bigger.

:w73:

Maybe just jump to C10 is better.

:w77:

Kind of broken shape feeling for Black.
Compare the result if you had turned at C11 on :b72:

.
See also toothpaste .

:b80:

-

Standard bad habit. See :b30:

,

.

( Quick tally up to :b80:

: basic shape problems, basic tesuji problems,
basic bad habits, basic contact fight problems: total ~10.
Nebulous, grandiose opening issues: Zero.
{ :b44:

is borderline.

}
This is standard for many (most?) adults for these levels.
Gives some perspective what's important to focus on.

See also this thread, posts 42 and 45.
)

Jujube · **#26**

Ed, that was extremely helpful and I need to thank you for taking the time to review the game. I was following the game with you and refreshing the page as you were typing, and I've put your comments in the SGF file alongside my own so I can look back at it in the future too.

I will work on cutting out those bad habits!
Which are:

1. Don't chase W in a direction they want to go (toothpaste)
2. Don't make exchanges that force W to live / make shape, they aren't good
3. Instead, play at the vital points to force W to run and kill him if he doesn't
4. Remember how to exchange that corner sequence at C16
5. Don't make soft moves e.g. extending when you should hane
6. If you don't have a moyo to extend, take the direction which gives profit

I'm going to try some sequences from the game to see what happens after I play on L18 or S13. I might have a follow-up question if I'm not sure about something.

Edit: Oh, and several people in this thread have told me to get a teacher. I think I'm beginning to understand why... :bow:

EdLee · **#27**

Hi Jujube,

You're very welcome.

The teacher discussion is yet another huge can of worms; I've refrained from kibitz so far.

Jujube · **#28**

Ed, I'm having problems reading this. (The vital points on move 30 and 40). There are three things that B might be able to do:

- Wall-in W, so as to make W live small
- Split W and capture a group
- Kill W

Also, in the later example, move 40, W has an extra liberty, so W can defend at L17. What happens now?

I'm being slow & not quite getting it!

EdLee · **#29**

Hi Jujube,

Good question. It's a vital point.
It does not mean it works now.
I never said to play it now.

If it does not work right now, you have to wait.

Eventually, either W has to spend a move there to fix it,
or, the game will have changed so the situation is different.

Two things, as you mentioned:

See the vital point;
Don't help your opponent fix it. (as usual, there are exceptions)

One more:

Recognition of a bad habit (or a bad move) is one thing;
finding a better move (or moves) is another all together (sometimes).

This is another common (bad?) habit from beginners.
A bad move is pointed out; they immediately ask, What's a better move?
Wait a moment! You have not digested why the first move is bad yet!
In some cases, yes, a better move is easy to spot;
but this is not always the case.

Analogy: it's (much) easier to spot an crooked circle than
it is to draw a perfect one freehand.

Another very common example: the broken shapes, for example --toothpaste .
They make a bad broken shape; it is pointed out to them;
they immediately ask, What's a better move?
Wait a moment! You have zero understanding about broken shapes yet!
And the mistake could be a few moves prior, even 20 moves ago.
So the first thing is recognition of the bad broken shapes. This takes time.

( Of course, again, if a better move is easy to spot, great; but this is not always true.

)

Jujube · **#30**

EdLee wrote:

Two things, as you mentioned:

See the vital point;
Don't help your opponent fix it. (as usual, there are exceptions)

One more:

Recognition of a bad habit (or a bad move) is one thing;
finding a better move (or moves) is another all together (sometimes).

This is another common (bad?) habit from beginners.
A bad move is pointed out; they immediately ask, What's a better move?
Wait a moment! You have not digested why the first move is bad yet!

Right! (Cool anecdote, by the way).

Don't force the opponent to fix their weaknesses. Let them find the time to fix it on their own.
Meanwhile, the local situation might change, and I might find a sequence to exploit it.

If I played the game again, I would turn at C12. That seems a decent move.

But....... what if W pushes through T16? This is small right? But if now B tenuki, W ataris, then takes the whole corner! It is hard to stomach. Yet if I respond at e.g. S17, then W fixes, I'm in the same position as before but my corner is smaller!

EdLee · **#31**

Jujube wrote:

what if W pushes through T16?

Hi Jujube, :b28:

at R17 instead solves this particular problem.

Uberdude · **#32**

Jujube wrote:

But....... what if W pushes through T16? This is small right? But if now B tenuki, W ataris, then takes the whole corner! It is hard to stomach. Yet if I respond at e.g. S17, then W fixes, I'm in the same position as before but my corner is smaller!

You are correct you shouldn't let white atari in the corner, as it is big for both points and eyes for the white group and yours. So respond at s17. But you aren't quite right that after w connects against the peep you are in the same position but the corner is smaller.

First let's look at that smaller corner claim. Yes it seems like white made your corner smaller in sente, but he also made it more solid, there is now no chance for white to invade at 3-3. On move 30 there is still considerable aji for white to try something in the corner with the peep at 3-3 and p18. Now with the white two space extension on the top side still somewhat weak such an invasion, even if it lives in the corner, is not to be feared yet by black as white will damage his outside group if he lives in the corner so black can then attack that. But if that outside group gets stronger then the corner aji could be used well by white. So one could think you now have something like a 10 point corner with 100% certainty versus a 15 point corner with 70%.

Now for being in the same position, the point of the peep is that it reduces white's eyeshape in sente, so later you could have some chances to kill the white group, whereas your exchange helps white make eyeshape.

In fact I wouldn't want to play the peep, but the q14 hane after white's mistake at t15. This is another way to exploit the fact white's move didn't help r14, he can now only play r13 instead of q13. Then play p12 to seal white in, and this is sente to kill the group, and then develop the centre by attacking the top group. Another, more speculative, approach would be to refrain from making the p12 outside for life exchange and immediately attack the top group and see if you can get it running and then get some stones in the centre which means the right side group can't make eyes by running into the centre, and then kill it.

Jujube · **#33**

Quote:

Then play p12 to seal white in, and this is sente to kill the group

When you say "this is sente to kill the group", you mean that after P12, W will have to now protect the vital point at S13, and this gives me sente to attack the group at the top?

Yes, I totally get it, if I hadn't provoked W into playing S13, I could have played Q14 in sente, and W can't double-hane because of shortage of liberties. Mmm, that result is much better than what I had!

I was going to ask a last brief question: to attack the group at the top, would you shoulder-hit at N16, knight's attack at N15, split at K17, or something else?

These are very helpful lessons. It is easy for me to see how someone could start playing the type of moves I am making and not notice them for years!

Jujube · **#34**

This is the weekly update!

I dropped to 12kyu on KGS, but then I won 3 of the last 4 games, and now I'm 10kyu. I'm not going to update my rank on here
until my rating is more solid. I'm pleased that I'm winning games.

I really recommend to watch Dsaun's lecture on YouTube about shapes and running fights. I found it extremely helpful. He really hammers home the importance of playing on the opponent's vital points, and I found it really helped strengthen my groups and weaken the opponent's groups, making it easy for me to make eyes, and difficult for the opponent to do the same. It's a long lecture and worth re-watching.

I wasn't going to post a game this week because the games have been either messy fighting games, or games where I don't feel either player played very well. But, I'll post this one, because it was fun to play. I ended up winning by a large margin. Both players made many howlers. I haven't commented on the game.

I hope to make it to SDK in the next month.

Loons · **#35**

I might play at J17 to stop white settling locally (and probably get points on top).

:b35:

...P16 seems stronger?

:b37:

seems like it has to be R16.

:b87:

would be infinitely better at B7. First line placements are cool moves, but it is rare that they are the 'lead out' move, especially when your own stones do not have enough eyespace.

Cool moyo building on the middle right ... 118 does seem like an overplay. First place I would look is Q7 with the feeling that black is too thick and white is too little to survive. The sequence to 126 is an insufferable concession.

Ultimately you are less of a DDK than white is (awesome).

Jujube · **#36**

No games to post this week, but I'd like to post a quick update.

Dropped back to 11kyu on KGS, which was disappointing, not for losing a rank, but because I played the game in a state of utter confusion about what was going on.* I got into a fight and ploughed on without reading it out, without considering how difficult the fight was going to be for me, tried to make a group escape, failed miserably, and resigned. It was stupid.

Went to a Go club on Tuesday and lost an even game against a 7kyu. It was my first OTB game; enjoyed it very much, so going again this week.

A board and stones and mat are arriving from Japan at some point. Posting a picture when it's here. The set is extremely nice, it's going to spur me on to be a better player, to grow into it; to arrive at a level where I feel like I should own it and it should feel proud to have me as an owner. (Yes, I'm personifying a Go board. So what.)

*This concerned me. At the moment, I am finding threats in my opponent's play and weaknesses in my own play, instead of the other way around. I'm playing the game pessimistically. For example, when I jump, connect diagonally, or make a shape that is any weaker than a solid connection, I am forever afraid of what happens to my stones if the opponent cuts. Yet when the opponent makes the same connection, I am forever afraid of what happens to my cutting stones, instead of the opponent's cut stones.

I'm going through Tesuji very slowly and putting problems on a board to make the information sink in.

Jujube · **#37**

Another week, another update. Today was strange. I played 3 games, the first 2 I played sober and lost both of them, the 3rd I played after a few beers, and won triumphantly. Beer makes us less timid. Maybe I should take a leaf out of Fujisawa Hideyuki's book and drink more regularly

On with the games. As always, I really do appreciate your comments. First game is a loss, second game is a win. I have gone through them myself quickly, but haven't commented on them, it's late over here, and like I said, beer. Might review them tomorrow and post some comments of my own.

I need to play more games. Not playing games is holding me back. I'm doing lots of book problems on my beautiful board but not playing games is really hurting my development.

oren · **#38**

Jujube wrote:

Maybe I should take a leaf out of Fujisawa Hideyuki's book and drink more regularly

Note that he got sober when he wanted to play well.

CnP · **#39**

seems like no difference in play between sober and drunk (to a quick glance). In both you start fights but the 1st against a stronger player who can out fight you and second against a similar ranked player you out fought. Going ddk-sdk I remember the big difference was mainly stopping blindly putting down stones and starting to think whether it was a good idea (I'm still working on this).

Knotwilg · **#40**

Jujube wrote:

Another week, another update. Today was strange. I played 3 games, the first 2 I played sober and lost both of them, the 3rd I played after a few beers, and won triumphantly. Beer makes us less timid.

Or beer tempts us to draw conclusions from very small samples.

My Study Journal: Shodan in 800 days?!

Who is online