It's interesting...
usagi wrote about the mistakes in the system, about wrong and unfair thinks, there is a poll and the result is, ppl want it this way.
now the system is wrong again, and unfair, has to be fixed (or horrible thinks will happen).
the direction is the same (and the poll made clear this direction isn't wanted) cause some weaker ppl with 10 games more then some strong guys cheated the system and were able to stay in alpha.
...interesting indeed

Currently in Gamma II I am in the promotion zone with 4/14 my score is better than a 9/3 record and within one point of tying the top two places with 10/0 and 11/1 records.

The two things that should be rewarded in league play:

1) Activity
2) Winning

I have played 18 games, making me the 2nd most active player in Gamma II this month. The most active player has 19 games with a record of 0/19. He is on the bubble for demotion. If this player were to play the rest of the games with the people below him, he would most likely fall into the demotion range if his record continues.

The current system would allow the best players to move forward if everyone played all of their games. Even though it doesn't seem right that a 10/0 record could be only 1 point ahead of a 4/14 record. It is important to note that I have played 8 more games and therefore been almost twice as active in the league.

I think that high activity in the league should be rewarded. Gamma II currently shows how this can work. Currently there are two people below me (one in the red zone) who can jump past me with only 2 more 1st game wins (which they should easily be able to find) and then all will be right with the world. The only real way that I can see to "game the system" would be to somehow hold out and not play strategic people, but unless there were 2 or 3 players working together in one group in one month, this would not work either.

Just one observation. Thoughts?

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Life is what you make of it, as long as you live.

I agree completely with every word

its funny how people always seem to blame the players that "game the system" e.g. weak players getting in many games. you can turn that back around and say we can blame all other players who did not play enough games! Yes its true that you need less wins to stay ahead of the one who loses a lot but you should still make an effort to stay ahead. i mainly think we have a lot of "lazy" strong players who want to just play a few get in first place and be done with it for the rest of the month but thats not what the league strives for. It's a competition in which you need to prove you are what it takes to be on top of your class!

So we could say we reward activity, but also that we punish INactivity.

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admin of the ASR league and KGS admin

I think we need to agree to a definition of active.
To me, 20 game played out of 39 possible is "active".
To expect strong players to play any more "teaching" games in a month is unrealistic.

If "teachers" with a ~10/10 record gets cut down by ~3/33 "students", the teachers won't be coming back.

Right now the league is short on dan players.
Does the league want strong players?
How much does the league expect them to give?

Should the same kyu players really be squatting alpha for months on end?
The top class should be a reward for good play, not a safe haven for weak playing system mechanics/tweakers.

We just need to look at recent numbers and close the larger(obvious) loopholes. At least shrink them down a little.

Maybe my 1/8 win bonus proposal is not the right call for all activity ratio.
Maybe just upping the class churn with more promotions/demotions numbers can achieve the same goal.

with 50% winratio you're not a "teacher" but normal member of the league...

a "real teacher" with 100% wins can get more points then anyone without wins by playing (and winning) against every member of his class once. so he gets a better result with 1/3 the games a weaker person with 100% losses gets.
getting a 3/33 result is worth less then winning against everyone once too, with 36 instead of 13 games.
if someone can beat 8 of his 13 league mates he can get a better result then the 3/33-guy with 22 games.

activity is rewarded, i won't deny it, but if the stronger ppl aren't MUCH less active the weaker and very active ppl have no chance.


ps:
someone who joined the league one week ago shouldn't tell us the system is wrong, ppl abuse it to cheat and how it has to be fixed...
everyone can start a discussion or suggest changes, but not everything you don't like is wrong and if you make it look that way ppl won't like your ideas no matter what they say, just due to the way they are presented.
the league runs for over 12 months now, thinks were changed, others not and for the activity reward...maybe it's not the only reason, but alpha and beta got much more active the last months and i think weaker ppl (like me) who fight to stay are one part of it.
there was a month with 25 games played in alpha, now we have more then 20 games per person...


edit:
2 things i forgot:

more promotions/demotions...
there were 2/4 promotions/demotions, now it's 3/6 for all classes and demoting more then half the class seems to much, so i think 3/6 won't be changed to 4/8 or so (1 person staying xD)

league short in dans, what does it offer...
the league offers seriouse games with relative long time settings and if someone is strong and active he'll find equal and stronger ppl in the higher classes.
he has to start at a low class and make his way up to beta and maybe alpha, some ppl might not want to do it, but it can't be helped, seeding strong player in higher classes was tested and failed.
there are dans in the league, also high dans, so i don't think the league is "short in dans". the more join the better ofc, but i think on kgs there are more sdk then dans, so i'd expecd the league to look similar and often strong players don't play much, so they might be not interested in the league...
but anyway, the league doesn't "need" ppl of a specific rank, whoever joins is welcome and the active and strong ppl will be in gigher classes after a while.

20 games out of 39 if you are a 3d+ will get you to promote all the way to Beta, and probably Alpha. To play more is not required.



If the teachers want to just teach, that's fine. If they want to promote, 10 games a month is not enough. We want strong players, but we want active strong players. The league has plenty of dan players. In the top 3 tiers, 33 out of 98 players are dan players (I didn't check them all, just those that had good enough records for me to check or people I already knew were dan players). Ok, that's a top heavy selection of players because they are the top tiers, but out of the remaining 14 classes I suspect we'll have another 20 or 30. This is obviously excluding the superclass which is all mid dan plus players.

We don't expect them to give much, other than play, and enjoy. Enjoy teaching, or play enough to get promoted to the level where the games are hard (I re-iterate, as a 4 dan, this will not be many games. Either is fine. 15/0 is a good enough record to get promoted in pretty much every class, and that shouldn't be too hard to achieve for a dan strength player in the lower tiers - in fact, 10/0 should be enough to get to Gamma as a 4d.



I agree with this, and at the moment 4 of the 5 kyu players in Alpha are in the demotion zone. 4 of the promotees from Beta at the moment are dan players. This imbalance will work out with time. Remember the class churn has been increased in the way you suggest this month already, we want to see what the next 3 or 4 months do before making further changes to this, particularly as the league is growing almost exponentially at the moment, making it hard for the tiers to settle down properly.

On the note of activity, congratulations on your 17-0 record. You have gone way beyond the activity required for you to promote this month

A few random thoughts:

1) It seems to me that if the ASR league stays around long enough, then some of these very active sdk players might one day turn into the high activity teachers in the league.

2) I think ASR has the potential to 'grow' their own strong players "in house".

3) It is a good point that it only takes about half as many games for an undefeated opponent to promote than for a losing record to promote. If a weaker player overtakes a promotion spot by sheer activity then it is usually by less than 1 full point. With one game, the stronger player can achieve as much as the weaker player can in 5 games. This balances itself out.

4) As an SDK I am very excited for the chance to play stronger players in an even game. Every strong player I play does not review and they do not all review fully. Some reviews last an hour and others 5 minutes.


5) I originally voted for one of the scoring changes, but I may have talked myself out of it now.

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Life is what you make of it, as long as you live.