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 Post subject: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #1 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:41 am 
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Hi

I just started my first rated correspondence game on OGS and have no rating yet. But something feels wrong about my opponent. I think he uses AI support but it's just a suspicion. I have a chat message he wrote and my subjective observation of his sudden change of the quality of moves.

The result is that I actually don't think it's a fun game anymore and I have concluded I will resign.

I was wondering if I should use the "Call moderator" but I have no idea what happens. I do not want my opponent to be notified that I have called the moderator.

Am I able to write my observations and concerns in a message?

I am not accusing my opponent for using AI but just want somehow to flag him. Maybe to keep an eye on him without confronting him? I do not want to put my opponent in a bad stand on OGS if I am wrong.

It is my first online game and the fear of an opponent using AI could be in play. I know that. But I am actually confused what to do.

Regards
Henrik

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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #2 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:32 am 
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Maybe you can post a link to your game?

Other semi-beginners have expressed similar concerns here, but in most (all?) cases stronger players here were pretty convinced their opponents did not use an AI. In those games their opponent was most likely just a human who played a bit better without any aid from an AI. In some cases it may have been a sandbagger.

Trolls with AI are much more likely to harass very strong players (pros) than to harrass weaker players.

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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:56 am 
Honinbo

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henrikfalk wrote:
I just started my first rated correspondence game on OGS and have no rating yet. But something feels wrong about my opponent. I think he uses AI support but it's just a suspicion. I have a chat message he wrote and my subjective observation of his sudden change of the quality of moves.


To back up what gennan said, sudden changes in the quality of moves is characteristic of the play of double digit kyus (DDKs). And inconsistency can even happen with stronger players. I remember playing a shodan (1 dan) once who was playing just horribly. Then he surprised me with a very strong attack. He blindsided me, but in retrospect, since parts of his game were so bad, other parts had to be very good for him to maintain his rank. ;) Unevenness in the quality of play is unusual among strong players, but very common among weak players. You can't really conclude anything from that. :)

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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:43 am 
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Welcome to L19.

I think that AI has fundamentally changed the nature of correspondence games - indeed any non-F2F game. In a larger sense, it has changed almost any non-F2F interaction.

This is just the beginning. We deal with bots playing go, answering phones, scheduling doctor's visits. Soon they may be replacing people completely in some instances.

The only sane way to respond to this is to accept the bots as just another sentient being. I don't care what kind or person/bot schedules my dental appointment. It is the result that matters.

I recommend the same with go.

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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #5 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:18 am 
Oza

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Quote:
The only sane way to respond to this is to accept the bots as just another sentient being


Not sure that's wise. We apparently have the ability to recognise 9-dan+ moves as would be made by a bot while playing DDK moves ourselves - just to fool the bots presumably.

If confuse-a-bot works, let's keep them on the back foot. Play even more DDK moves.

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Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:01 pm 
Gosei

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The motto "hand talk" for go is contradicted when/if AI is playing. The term for me means we are communicating, my partner and I. Playing, we get to know each other. With an AI as opponent I learn nothing human about my partner. The AI doesn't learn anything human about me. Using AI assist seems to me to fit into the same category as sandbagging, a kind of reverse sandbagging.


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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #7 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:01 pm 
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Thanks for all your thoughts.

My current approach as a semi-beginner(App. 20 kyu, maybe a bit better) is to learn Go by other humans and not AI. I not only learn by my own mistakes but also by my opponents mistakes.

My opponent is 21 kyu on OGS. I was just wondering why my opponent wrote: "dang 13k jeez I just started this week lol" in the chat after after we played the first 10-15 stones each, I was quite satisfied with my stones on the board compared to the stones of my opponent.

As I interpret his chat he was referring to my opening because of his slang. But I could be wrong?
My concern is, if he was referring to my opening, why did he use exactly the words "13 kyu"?

Maybe I just don't understand his English and slang(I am not native English) and is just paranoid :)

I think the best advice to myself is to try forget this game and move on :)

Regards Henrik

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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #8 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:38 pm 
Honinbo

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henrikfalk wrote:
My opponent is 21 kyu on OGS. I was just wondering why my opponent wrote: "dang 13k jeez I just started this week lol" in the chat after after we played the first 10-15 stones each, I was quite satisfied with my stones on the board compared to the stones of my opponent.

As I interpret his chat he was referring to my opening because of his slang. But I could be wrong?
My concern is, if he was referring to my opening, why did he use exactly the words "13 kyu"?


What he wrote is indeed mysterious. dang and jeez are mild curse words. "dang 13k" is the first clause. I.e., Cursed 13 k. Then the second clause: Oh my god, I just started this week. :lol:

Maybe he has a rating of 13 kyu on a different server. Who knows??? Anyway, he seems to be complaining about a 13 kyu rating. Maybe he misread your rating and thought that you were 13 kyu. In which case he might mean this: I just started playing this week. Why am I playing a 13 kyu? Maybe 13k was a typo.

Who knows what he meant?

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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #9 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:18 pm 
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I found the game you are talking about. My first thought is: you started having a conversation with your opponent. He said something and you're unsure what it meant. I suggest asking him. You wanted to play humans, but you seem afraid to talk to your human opponent, instead coming here for advice instead. You mentioned your poor English, that's understandable, but I encourage you to try talking to him.

You and your opponent both seem very new. But you are playing your one and only game on OGS, your opponent has completed his first ~100 games in just the past week(!). Naturally he will be improving very rapidly with that pace.

I don't detect any sudden change in his moves. Perhaps you felt this when the stones came into contact and you lost a few battles.

Finally, a guess what he meant: For players who have not played any rated games, OGS starts them at a middle rank -- 13kyu! The ratings for new players change very very fast, and are extremely inaccurate. Most of the user interface is supposed to hide this and display "?" instead, but my guess is somewhere he saw the 13k. So your opponent thought he is playing a rather strong 13k opponent. Imagine how he must feel facing such a strong opponent, when he doesn't understand why this is happening. "dang, jeez, how could he win?".


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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #10 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:43 pm 
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yoyoma wrote:
I found the game you are talking about. My first thought is: you started having a conversation with your opponent. He said something and you're unsure what it meant. I suggest asking him. You wanted to play humans, but you seem afraid to talk to your human opponent, instead coming here for advice instead. You mentioned your poor English, that's understandable, but I encourage you to try talking to him.

You and your opponent both seem very new. But you are playing your one and only game on OGS, your opponent has completed his first ~100 games in just the past week(!). Naturally he will be improving very rapidly with that pace.

I don't detect any sudden change in his moves. Perhaps you felt this when the stones came into contact and you lost a few battles.

Finally, a guess what he meant: For players who have not played any rated games, OGS starts them at a middle rank -- 13kyu! The ratings for new players change very very fast, and are extremely inaccurate. Most of the user interface is supposed to hide this and display "?" instead, but my guess is somewhere he saw the 13k. So your opponent thought he is playing a rather strong 13k opponent. Imagine how he must feel facing such a strong opponent, when he doesn't understand why this is happening. "dang, jeez, how could he win?".


Thanks for the clarification :)

And thanks for your advices. I am new to online Go and have to learn that world too :)

Regards
Henrik

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 Post subject: Re: OGS and "Call moderator"
Post #11 Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:40 am 
Oza
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Henrik, just FYI:

If you click the “call moderator” button on OGS your opponent will NOT be notified.

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