Lee Sedol Submits Resignation Letter to Korean Pro Go Assn.

wineandgolover · **#21**

Magicwand wrote:

[admin] Political comment removed. -JB [/admin]...

I suspect both politics and personal attacks are prohibited here, and you managed both in four words. That's somewhat impressive!

Uberdude · **#22**

So a little clarification from yesterdays AGA stream with Myungwan Kim: this Korean Go Professionals Association and the Hankuk Kiwon (aka KBA) are different things, though there may be some relationship/affiliation between them (perhaps a bit like the English Football Association which organises the game in England, and the Professional Footballers' Association which is the players' union, headed by the massively over-paid Gordon Taylor). Myungwan said the Korean Go Professionals Association says you need to be a member of it to play in KBA organised tournaments, but the KBA does not say this. So Lee is basically calling their bluff. I don't know if any of this 5% cut is passed from the KPA to to KBA, if players get a pension (or other benefits such as health insurance) from either or both organisations.

ez4u · **#23**

Maybe I should not be calling Lee Sedol a jerk, but it seems that he is always acting by (and for) himself alone. How do the rest of the top Korean players come into this? Is there any general dissatisfaction out there?

The parallel from U.S. history would seem to be the split in professional golf that created the PGA TOUR back in the 60's. But there a concerted effort by and on behalf of the leading tour pros had enough muscle to make things happen. Can Lee Sedol do it by himself?

The Nihon Kiin in Japan presents a similar problem to my eye. As an association, it represents the interests of the average member (pro) rather than those most visible and interesting to fans. It has not been able to make much progress at reducing the overhang of also rans that ballooned during the 80's.

Joaz Banbeck · **#24**

IMHO, the best strategy for Lee would be to start a competing association with no or lower fees.

This leaves the KBA in a bind. If they recognize the new association, then they have to compete with it for members in an open market. If they don't recognize it, they are effectively claiming a monopoly. ( I don't know what South Korean law is on monopolies, but I suspect that they have something like most industrialized countries. )

There are parallels in American sports. In football ( that's real football for you folks across the pond

) the American Football League arose to compete with the National Football League. In basketball, the American Basketball Association grew to compete with the National Basketball association.

Both of the newcomers eventually merged with the older organizations, but did so after making some change in policy.

tj86430 · **#25**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

that's real football for you folks across the pond

Kirby · **#26**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

IMHO, the best strategy for Lee would be to start a competing association with no or lower fees.

I think this is something Lee is considering. But not all pros are as actively against the current association as Lee is.

Kirby wrote:

Also, somewhat related, Lee Sedol mentioned the possibility of starting up a new association to replace this one. Other pros, however, seem hesitant to leave the existing association.

xed_over · **#27**

I love how GoGameGuru describes the event...

GoGameGuru wrote:

To correct recent rumors: Lee Sedol has canceled his union membership. He hasn't quit KBA, nor pro Go.

by78 · **#28**

Well, if Lee Sedol is excluded from any domestic tournament due to his quitting this organization, I'm sure the Chinese will welcome Lee with open arms.

Or maybe Lee can find some free time to tour North America (and bring his friend Gu Li along) so we fans can meet him here. Hey, one can always dream.

Kirby · **#29**

Well, in seemingly anti-climatic news, it appears that there is a good chance that things will work themselves out [1].

Quote:

이들 사례에 대해 양건 회장은 “기사회 내부에서 충분히 검토할 수 있는 사안”이라고 말했다. “이세돌 9단과 대화를 하면서 서로 공감하는 부분을 충분히 나눴고, 뭔가 괜찮은 방향으로 갈 수도 있을 것 같다는 생각이 들었다”고도 전했다. 이세돌 9단 역시 “대화는 분명히 필요하다”며 “요구 사항이 받아들여지면 탈퇴를 철회할 생각도 있다”고 밝혔다. 양측이 대화로 문제를 해결하겠다는 의지를 보인 셈이다.

(In response to Lee Sedol's complaints about the organization), Korean Pro Association Chairman Yang-gun said, "The issue is something we'll be able to sufficiently examine from within the association; While discussing with Lee Sedol 9d, we discussed what we agreed upon, and came to think that we could move toward a direction we could both agree upon."

Lee Sedol 9d also revealed, "Conversation was clearly needed; if we can sit well with the requirements, I'm also thinking of withdrawing my resignation."

It looks like both sides are willing to resolve the situation through conversation.

So my personal guess is that some changes will be made to the way things work in that pro association - maybe the rules will be more relaxed, or perhaps more flexible for pros. And if that all goes according to a way that Lee Sedol can live with, he'll probably withdraw his resignation, and keep being a part of the association.

[1] http://sports.media.daum.net/sports/gen ... 2123442983

Bantari · **#30**

gowan wrote:

On the face of it it seems rather selfish of Lee to object to this "fee" payment. As Bill points out, at the beginning of their careers pros, nor anyone else, knows which ones will become big prize winners. Without some source of income at the start people would not choose to be pros. I suspect the weaker pros who do not win a lot of prize money are also the pros who most support and teach the amateur world in Korea, the source of new pros.

Exactly.
Which in turn helps ensure great interest in Go and this in turn causes the prize money to be high and top players like Lee Sedol earning a lot of money.

I would feel much more compassionate towards him if he also complained about the system when he was still a young and budding pro with uncertain future. Or did he?

Yukontodd · **#31**

I think one shouldn't judge a master strategist until well into yose. However it turns out, that'll most likely be exactly what he was aiming at.

Uberdude · **#32**

gowan wrote:

On the face of it it seems rather selfish of Lee to object to this "fee" payment. As Bill points out, at the beginning of their careers pros, nor anyone else, knows which ones will become big prize winners. Without some source of income at the start people would not choose to be pros. I suspect the weaker pros who do not win a lot of prize money are also the pros who most support and teach the amateur world in Korea, the source of new pros.

Although I agree the withdrawing from an insurance system (if that's what it indeed is) when you don't end up being a beneficiary smacks of self interest, I don't believe the claim you* are oblivious to which kids are likely future champions. When Benjamin Teuber visited the Kwon Gapyoung baduk school he wrote abour a precocious young kid there who was beating older kids and pros and clearly going places. His name? Park Junghwan.

*us western forum chatterers might be, but not Mr Kwon.

beata · **#33**

http://www.ddanzi.com/ddanziNews/99042764

This is an article from an anonymous Korean pro, which is posted in Tygem.com this morning but got deleted very soon. Chinese newsweb SINA already translated and post this here:
http://sports.sina.com.cn/go/2016-05-24 ... 8761.shtml

I am Chinese, and I think it's pretty interesting and there is lot of back story we should and haven't known about.

We can see that 3-5% fee is not the most important point. Actually Lee is very generous, he just take 50,000,000 Won for donation. He also donated all his Asian Cup prize money in 2008 for earthquake area in China.

From the article the player association is not a community representing players opinion, nor a player Union, but a powerful organization which controls the KBA(by some powerful person and group from business and political field).The organization is not even a legal organization, but it controls prize money release and fund money, and its financial situation is a secret. In the article the player association even make loans to player for their financial need.

Obviously, there is some problem about the organization and part or most players don't like that. They want a change but don't have ability or courage. From that side, I believe Lee did something he thought was right.

The article is long and has a lot of information. I can't translate all of it. Just hope you know that from my point of view Lee is a fighter. He may do things differently from others, but he deserves more respect.

----
note: I just found this forum after the alphago match, so I am new here. This is my first post, because i find out that it's difficult for you guys to get more information from Asia. I'm a big fan of Lee Sedol for several years, and I know Chinese and i'm learning Korean as well. I think you may want to know this. sorry about my poor English!

tchan001 · **#34**

Maybe he'll move to China and join the Chinese pros if too much pressure is applied.

beata · **#35**

tchan001 wrote:

Maybe he'll move to China and join the Chinese pros if too much pressure is applied.

I think he won't.
As I know he want to be a legend like Cho Hunhyun,not only in achievement but also in influence in Baduk,so he won't leave.
In his interview last few days, he said he thought about this things from 2014 and now is the right time, because he get more influence from society after alphago match.
I think because the association he resisted is really powerful, he considered the time and method very carefully.

Magicwand · **#36**

Bantari wrote:

gowan wrote:

On the face of it it seems rather selfish of Lee to object to this "fee" payment. As Bill points out, at the beginning of their careers pros, nor anyone else, knows which ones will become big prize winners. Without some source of income at the start people would not choose to be pros. I suspect the weaker pros who do not win a lot of prize money are also the pros who most support and teach the amateur world in Korea, the source of new pros.

Exactly.
Which in turn helps ensure great interest in Go and this in turn causes the prize money to be high and top players like Lee Sedol earning a lot of money.

I would feel much more compassionate towards him if he also complained about the system when he was still a young and budding pro with uncertain future. Or did he?

if you feel that lee is doing this because of money ... xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <---- if i say this it will be deleted by adimin so i will.

Bantari · **#37**

Magicwand wrote:

Bantari wrote:

gowan wrote:

On the face of it it seems rather selfish of Lee to object to this "fee" payment. As Bill points out, at the beginning of their careers pros, nor anyone else, knows which ones will become big prize winners. Without some source of income at the start people would not choose to be pros. I suspect the weaker pros who do not win a lot of prize money are also the pros who most support and teach the amateur world in Korea, the source of new pros.

Exactly.
Which in turn helps ensure great interest in Go and this in turn causes the prize money to be high and top players like Lee Sedol earning a lot of money.

I would feel much more compassionate towards him if he also complained about the system when he was still a young and budding pro with uncertain future. Or did he?

if you feel that lee is doing this because of money ... xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <---- if i say this it will be deleted by adimin so i will.

Here is what was said about this by the OP:

Quote:

Apparently, Lee Sedol had an issue with the uniform deduction that the association takes out from all players. There is about a 3~5% deduction related to members' games that they take out. So players that win a lot of money pay a larger contribution to this amount.

So, it seems to me to be about money. If it is not, please enlighten me.
I do not have any first-hand info, so I have to go by what is said by those who do.

Kirby · **#38**

I didn't mean to imply that this was entirely about money, though money was mentioned in articles. Sometimes the article authors may be interested in explaining that information, too, so it doesn't mean that Lee Sedol is aiming at that. I have no idea about the extent to which he cares about the money.

My feeling is that, more than money, Lee Sedol is a bit of a rebel. It's in his go style, too. He doesn't like to do things the conventional way, and often plays creative moves. IIRC, for the longest time he was a pro 3d. And I think a reason was that he didn't want to conform to what people expected of him, to participate in the games that would increase his rank. I think eventually they changed the system.

In general, when people don't conform to the current system, you can react to it in different ways. If you like the current system and think people should just accept it, then maybe you feel that person is being unfair or greedy. If you think that the system needs to be changed, then sometimes having "rebels" can be a good thing.

I won't get into politics, but sometimes people vote for politicians in the same way (e.g. the guy that will promise to bring change vs. the guy that knows the current system and will maintain it).

Bill Spight · **#39**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

In football ( that's real football for you folks across the pond

) the American Football League arose to compete with the National Football League.

The only real football is Australian rules football. Mark! :mrgreen:

Lee Sedol Submits Resignation Letter to Korean Pro Go Assn.

Who is online