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ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero and KataGo from your webbrowser
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16563		 Page 6 of 12
Author:  Maharani [ Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
spook wrote:
:shock: are you disconnected each time you use the "hide/show ownership" button ?
That's not supposed to happen. - * confused * :) a little more info please.


Affirmative. Whenever I use the button, the statistics freeze and calculation starts anew. Not sure how to show this with screenshots, though?

As a side note, I've had this issue since before I became a ZBaduk sponsor, see for example this post of mine from Christmas Eve: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=252255#p252255
Author:  spook [ Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Maharani wrote:
Affirmative. Whenever I use the button, the statistics freeze and calculation starts anew.


I just wanted to let you know that I can reconstruct the problem in mean time. :)
(More technical information is available here.)
Author:  Maharani [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Great to hear. :) If this issue was resolved, would using the ownership button signal to the server that I'm just idle rather than completely idle? I assume it would depend on whether workaround 1 or 2 was implemented?

Otherwise (or maybe regardless ;) ), would it be possible to increase the time-out limit to 120 minutes? :3 This would be tremendously helpful for me. I use ZBaduk to handcraft high-playout self-play games, and my hope from the start was that I would be able to do this for komi 7 to investigate how very strong AI plays when there's a possibility of ties. I am so excited that this is now possible for me. For this project, especially for the first 30 or 40 moves, I would love to have the potential for very high playouts in order to create as high-quality self-play games as possible. Ever since you've implemented the option of integer komi, I've been unsuccessfully trying to get to even 120,000 playouts for move 1 since the symmetry of the board causes KataGo to consider something like forty moves that have a winrate of 44 - 49 %, meaning that in order for the four best equivalent moves (the 4-4 points) to reach 120,000 playouts, the overall playouts need to reach roughly 1.2 million. With my current internet connection, sixty minutes always gets me more than half-way, but never all the way there. Two hours would satisfy my craving to get to the amount of playouts I'm wishing for. :)

On an unrelated note, ZBaduk is the only website I've visited in a very long time for which it is not sufficient to type zbaduk.com into my browser's address line (regardless of OS or browser), which produces a completely blank page (it doesn't seem to be a 404 type of error page, though). I need to specifically type https://zbaduk.com to reach the website when my browser cache is clear. Only a minor inconvenience, but a pretty non-standard one. :)
Author:  xela [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Maharani, I'm really curious about what you're trying to achieve here (and I like the self-play games, please keep them coming!) Why do you need so many playouts for the first move? You know it's going to choose a 4-4 point anyway, so why not just put that move on the board and start your self-play game from there? (Unless you want to explore an "interesting" fuseki rather than AI's favourite fuseki, in which case the playouts and evaluations don't matter at all.)

Also, if you want 120k playouts for a specific move, rather than for the position as a whole, can't you just put that move on the board, get your 120k playouts (which is, what, ten minutes on ZBaduk?) and then backtrack?
Author:  Maharani [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
My best and most honest answer is that I'm incurably neurotic. :)

My slightly less honest but a bit more practical answer is that IMO, the easier it is to get to a million playouts (for any move, not just move 0), the better. For instance, there is a slight possibility that, with enough play-outs, Kata will start rating the 3-4 points better than the 4-4 points. I want to see if this is something that could happen with a million playouts of move 0.

Besides, I don't really understand what the need is to disconnect idle users in the first place... To lessen strain on the server? Worst case, someone accidentally falls asleep calculating, wakes up and doesn't save their progress. (If this happens before move 40, the calculations are saved to the server regardless*, which seems to me to be a net-positive outcome.) Best case, they accidentally fall asleep and wake up to find their move suddenly has 20 million playouts, giving Kata much more confidence for the resulting sequences (if the calculation is still running when they wake up). In spook's own words, "the only good use for a GPU is baduk mining", anyway. :)

* Side note: This does not seem to be the case for calculations based on komi 7. I don't really care, but I wonder if this a fluke or intentional?

Side-side note: Of course, these are all just awkward workarounds owing to the sad fact that AIs cannot currently save and later continue on from previous calculations... Thankfully, the decade is still young!
Author:  xela [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Maharani wrote:
For instance, there is a slight possibility that, with enough play-outs, Kata will start rating the 3-4 points better than the 4-4 points. I want to see if this is something that could happen with a million playouts of move 0.

Interesting question! I think it's unlikely but worth exploring. But I still think you could do it more efficiently.

A million playouts of move 0 gives you, what, 100k playouts of D4 (and similar for the other 4-4 points, but they should all get very similar evaluations), and a few tens of thousands of playouts of D3? You'd do better to just play D3 on the board, get 200k playouts of that position, do the same for D4, then see which has the higher evaluation. You get more (relevant) data for less computation and less of your time.

The problem is that if D3 has a lower policy value, then it could take some massive number of total playouts before D3 starts getting a significant proportion of that total. That's why, if you're interested in a specific move, it's usually better to play that move on the board rather than analyse from the previous position.
Author:  zermelo [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Maharani wrote:
My best and most honest answer is that I'm incurably neurotic. :)

My slightly less honest but a bit more practical answer is that IMO, the easier it is to get to a million playouts (for any move, not just move 0), the better. For instance, there is a slight possibility that, with enough play-outs, Kata will start rating the 3-4 points better than the 4-4 points. I want to see if this is something that could happen with a million playouts of move 0.



I think 1 million playouts costs something in the order of 1 USD computed on the cloud computers. I find a bit unreasonable to expect to get unlimited background computation time with Zbaduk's prices. I think the system is meant for interactive game reviews. You can always set up a cloud-computing system of your own. I've for instance used this and modified it at some points https://github.com/bsteuber/lizzie-gcloud-setup.
Author:  xela [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Maharani wrote:
For instance, there is a slight possibility that, with enough play-outs, Kata will start rating the 3-4 points better than the 4-4 points. I want to see if this is something that could happen with a million playouts of move 0.

OK, I can answer that one for you. The miracle didn't happen, at least not today. Maybe it needs ten million playouts? :-)
Author:  Maharani [ Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
zermelo wrote:
I think 1 million playouts costs something in the order of 1 USD computed on the cloud computers.


I had no idea, and now feel bad for asking... :oops:

EDIT: I've managed to improve my internet connection. Sixty minutes is enough for my purposes by now. :) On the other hand, I still wouldn't mind joining, say, a higher pay-level sponsorship tier without automatic disconnection for people who need high playouts... Just a suggestion :)
Author:  spook [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Maharani wrote:
I still wouldn't mind joining, say, a higher pay-level sponsorship tier without automatic disconnection for people who need high playouts... Just a suggestion :)


Setting a correct price is difficult. Some chinese vendors use credit systems, and rent services per minute.
When ZBaduk started out that was impossible, because it had to provision servers in advance.
It would be complicated to introduce it now.

I can only acknowledge that prices are indeed a bit too low.
(some chinese vendors charge 60$/mo, and e.g. an AWS GPU instance costs about 0.8$/hr)
At the same time, I guess that may be what makes ZBaduk stand out.
The very fact that it is cheaper to use ZBaduk than to buy your own hardware.

January was actually a good month. One of the first months where:
membership_sales > hardware_costs.

So, ZBaduk is happy ! :tmbup:
Crunch those numbers !
Author:  y501 [ Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Hi,

¿Can you get verified to receive contributions from Brave users? I just gave 5$ worth of BAT to OGS and I'd like to give the BAT I get monthly to you.

Also, do you still need someone to translate your site to Korean?
Author:  Maharani [ Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
spook wrote:
January was actually a good month. One of the first months where:
membership_sales > hardware_costs.


That's great to hear - congratulations! :)

spook wrote:
So, ZBaduk is happy ! :tmbup:
Crunch those numbers !


You're the best. Thank you once again for the service you offer. <3

EDIT: Maybe I over-interpreted "crunch those numbers"? :) When I'm "just idle", I still time out automatically after at least sixty and at most seventy minutes.
Author:  spook [ Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Maharani wrote:
EDIT: Maybe I over-interpreted "crunch those numbers"? :) When I'm "just idle", I still time out automatically after at least sixty and at most seventy minutes.

@Maharani , oopz, I only just realize now, that may have been confusing. Sorry about that.
What I did mean: "don't feel guilty". ; What I didn't mean: "all limitations are gone".

I will look further into the ownership-toggle thing which you mentioned though. (in a couple of weeks).
In mean time I hope to add some other features which you may like.

Some transparency about what can be expected in the coming weeks:

Right now, there are a couple of technical bottlenecks in the architecture of ZBaduk, which I am trying to enhance in the next release. Even though they don't add new functionality, it will be important for future development.

There will be a "game properties panel" soon, which will allow to edit game results, dates, rules and other properties. So, that will be coming in about 2 weeks I think.

Part of the plan behind the game properties panel, is to make the step towards "sharing" of reviews. e.g. you played a game with somebody, you review it, and you want to send him a link to the review by mail. I don't know exactly when this will be ready, but perhaps in about a month.

I created an experimental voting page for upcoming features:
http://www.tricider.com/brainstorming/3Z1ljaALAud
Feel free to add features or leave votes. Feel free to vote on multiple ideas.
Author:  Maharani [ Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
spook wrote:
Maharani wrote:
EDIT: Maybe I over-interpreted "crunch those numbers"? :) When I'm "just idle", I still time out automatically after at least sixty and at most seventy minutes.

@Maharani , oopz, I only just realize now, that may have been confusing. Sorry about that.
What I did mean: "don't feel guilty". ; What I didn't mean: "all limitations are gone".

I will look further into the ownership-toggle thing which you mentioned though. (in a couple of weeks).


Got it, thanks for clarifying. :)

I hope you don't mind me re-asking a couple of questions you may have missed:

Maharani wrote:
If this issue was resolved, would using the ownership button signal to the server that I'm just idle rather than completely idle? I assume it would depend on whether workaround 1 or 2 was implemented?

[...]

On an unrelated note, ZBaduk is the only website I've visited in a very long time for which it is not sufficient to type zbaduk.com into my browser's address line (regardless of OS or browser), which produces a completely blank page (it doesn't seem to be a 404 type of error page, though). I need to specifically type https://zbaduk.com to reach the website when my browser cache is clear. Only a minor inconvenience, but a pretty non-standard one. :)

[...

Up to] move 40, the calculations are saved to the server regardless [... .] This does not seem to be the case for calculations based on komi 7. I don't really care, but I wonder if this a fluke or intentional?
Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
I would appreciate settings to turn of the winrate and only show the katago score very much.

I use score only on my pc because I like it, but at the club while using a tablet it would be also an advantage because of the smaller screen size.
Author:  spook [ Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Maharani wrote:
... ZBaduk is the only website I've visited in a very long time for which it is not sufficient to type zbaduk.com into my browser's address line (regardless of OS or browser), which produces a completely blank page

Thank you for informing me about this --> should be fixed ! :salute:

Maharani wrote:
This does not seem to be the case for calculations based on komi 7. I don't really care, but I wonder if this a fluke or intentional?

Of course in the future, it has to be rolled out to other rulesets and komi values, but right now that cache only supports 7.5+chinese rules.

What's holding me back? --> The right thing to do: a redesign of the caching system, to migrate it to a real database.
Why ? --> because it uses too much server memory and therefor should run on its own dedicated server. (takes about 700MB RAM/cache)

Maharani wrote:
If this issue was resolved, would using the ownership button signal to the server that I'm just idle rather than completely idle?

As you stated, it depends on the solution. Right now, clicking show/hide triggers communication with the back-end. As it looks now, it is likely that this won't be the case in the future. It will just show/hide the statistics, and won't communicate anything to the server anymore. So, it will have no more effect on "idleness". ;-) (That's good news, right? ;-) ... but only if everything goes according to plan.)
Author:  Maharani [ Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
spook wrote:
So, it will have no more effect on "idleness". ;-) (That's good news, right? ;-) [...])


Not for me, since the main reason I suggested this "bug fix" is that I intended to use the toggle to communicate "just-idleness" to the server in order to cheat the sixty-minute calculation limit. :mrgreen: ;) :oops: But it's all good. :)
Author:  spook [ Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Gomoto wrote:
I would appreciate settings to turn of the winrate and only show the katago score very much.
I use score only on my pc because I like it, but at the club while using a tablet it would be also an advantage because of the smaller screen size.

I agree, ZBaduk urgently needs an option to show/hide columns in its tables.

Given the fact that you only use score,
perhaps the following could be even more valuable for you ?
Attachment:
score on goban.jpg
score on goban.jpg [ 162.17 KiB | Viewed 8284 times ]


It could be in the next front-end release,
I just need to figure out how to switch between modes.
Perhaps a button to toggle between the score/winrate views.
Attachment:
button to toggle it.jpg
button to toggle it.jpg [ 31.32 KiB | Viewed 8284 times ]


The buttons could look like this :
Attachment:
buttons to add or remove statistics.jpg
buttons to add or remove statistics.jpg [ 3.59 KiB | Viewed 8282 times ]


Probably in a week or 2 ... (and of course only for KataGo).
Author:  Maharani [ Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
Yet another question... sorry. How come the winrates displayed on the board for 7 komi are different (lower) than the winrates given in the chart? I don't remember this happening for 7.5 komi reviews.

EDIT: I think the reason is that the displayed-on-the-board values are an average of KataGo 7 komi New Zealand rules and Leela Zero 7.5 komi Chinese rules, except that the Leela Zero values are hidden in the chart?
Author:  y501 [ Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero from your webbrowser
spook wrote:
Gomoto wrote:
I would appreciate settings to turn of the winrate and only show the katago score very much.
I use score only on my pc because I like it, but at the club while using a tablet it would be also an advantage because of the smaller screen size.

I agree, ZBaduk urgently needs an option to show/hide columns in its tables.

Given the fact that you only use score,
perhaps the following could be even more valuable for you ?
Attachment:
score on goban.jpg


It could be in the next front-end release,
I just need to figure out how to switch between modes.
Perhaps a button to toggle between the score/winrate views.
Attachment:
button to toggle it.jpg


The buttons could look like this :
Attachment:
buttons to add or remove statistics.jpg


Probably in a week or 2 ... (and of course only for KataGo).


That looks amazing :clap: :clap:
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