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 Post subject: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:05 pm 
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How does a go server stay running? Does KGS actualy make enough with KGS plus to keep the server paid for? Is it just a net loss deemed to be for the greater good? Ive never seen anything advertised on KGS that wasnt some kind of house add. And Ive never seen anything like donations on kgs.

Someone asked about this earlier tonight, and I relized I had no idea really. My general feeling is that if the people who do lectures on KGS do them for free (As sort of advertising/promotion of lessons) They would probably break even, If not make profits. But if they are paying for all of that, I really do wonder how exactly the buisness end of things works. I also might guess since it was known as the Kisedo game server It may be affiliated with the publishing company (The torunament prizes are usualy gift certificates too I think). Maybe its an acceptable loss to promote go, and generate more go related sales.

Anyone more qualified then me have an ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #2 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:52 pm 
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they also sell Android client by $14.99
this looks quite expensive to me

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:00 am 
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I don't think the lectures are free, since only KGS+-subscribers can watch them. I remember somewhere in this forum wms said (half jokingly), that he still hadn't figured out how to make profit with KGS, so I'd assume he chips in more than he gets out (hopefully not a large difference). And to my knowledge KGS is not affiliated with Kiseido anymore.

By the way the android client comes with (I think) two months KGS+-subscription, so the price is fairly reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:04 am 
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Yeah, I'd already figured the android app as basicly free, comes with 2 moths of plus, so it's like $5 on its own, then if you consider the normal client is free, a lot of man hours had to go into both

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:41 am 
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Kaya is in beta now, free on all platforms. Early alpha and closed beta accounts can be gotten for donations, as well as feature requests etc.

Probably a paid-tier with additional services will be added. I'm not a dev, so I don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #6 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Now that I think about it, charging $15 dollars and then throwing in two months of KGS+ was pretty clever by wms. KGS+ doesn't cost him anything, the only drawback is people being turned away by the 14.99 price.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #7 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:10 pm 
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My understanding of KGS (from various titbits I've heard, not guaranteed to be 100% accurate) is that in ye olden days it was supported by Kiseido (hence the original name before the recursive acronym it is now), but their sponsorship stopped a few years ago. It makes enough from KGS+ to cover costs and might even make a little profit (but probably nothing like enough to compensate wms at commercial rates for the many hours of work he has put in). Although admins are unpaid for normal admin-ing, there is payment for some management of KGS+.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #8 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:57 am 
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Thanks to ProtoJazz for making this thread. It`s worth remembering that, even if you don`t agree with the escaper policy or rating system or whatever on KGS, that a lot of fine people put a lot of hard work into making it available, and that they don`t get much money, if any, from it. I`ve not always liked certain things on KGS, but far more important than that I do know that I have had many, many enjoyable hours playing go on it and watching others playing.

So, thank you wms and all the KGS team! It`s a huge contribution to go.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #9 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:12 am 
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KGS does OK. As was guessed, it makes enough to cover all costs, plus a small amount more. The KGS Plus subscriptions and the Android client sales both contribute to the income.

I do pay the teachers for their KGS Plus lectures. The pro teachers make a decent amount for each lecture, the amateur teachers make a much smaller amount.

Thanks to everybody for their nice words about KGS. It's been a lot of fun to run. As was guessed, it does earn a little profit, but not enough to cover the time put into it. So I can either look at it as a failed business or as a successful hobby, and I prefer the latter. :) I'm especially thankful to people who have long KGS Plus subscriptions, although I look at it as a hobby, if I had to put money into it to keep it running then I would have shut it down long ago. The people who pay for KGS Plus have kept that from happening.


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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #10 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:13 am 
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I always wonder with businesses like KGS if there is some sort of maximum revenue, or if it is a local optimum that with a little more talent and organization it couldn't be more popular and make more money. It seems to be fairly subsistent as is. For example it hasn't seemed to attract interest from major international Go organizing committees, is there some sort of cultural problem that the KGS organizers are unwilling or unable to overcome. It may be just me, but the style of play on KGS seems to be fairly far from the mainstream go attracting speed gamers for example, and having inflated rankings, which is one of the reasons I don't use it. Also it seems to be fairly high centered on Java as a technology, which is also a limiting technology in many ways. IE the authors of the software are unwilling to go that extra mile to make the best possible product, and it shows in the basic usefulness or functionality of their product.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #11 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 am 
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SmoothOper wrote:
Also it seems to be fairly high centered on Java as a technology, which is also a limiting technology in many ways. IE the authors of the software are unwilling to go that extra mile to make the best possible product, and it shows in the basic usefulness or functionality of their product.


As opposed to what? The truly popular go servers for desktop only provide a Windows only client which seems to be much more limiting.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #12 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:51 am 
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oren wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
Also it seems to be fairly high centered on Java as a technology, which is also a limiting technology in many ways. IE the authors of the software are unwilling to go that extra mile to make the best possible product, and it shows in the basic usefulness or functionality of their product.


As opposed to what? The truly popular go servers for desktop only provide a Windows only client which seems to be much more limiting.



Not true, I have an IGS client on my iPad and on my windows machine. The problem is that writing one client that works everywhere will always limit the application to the functionality that is universal across platforms, so for example it won't be using touch technology on the iPad since it isn't implemented on a windows platform, and the windows platform will start noticeably slower and use more memory that is necessary due to the JVM being convenient for the programmer but inconvenient for the users. This is what I am talking about when I say Java programmers are not committed :blackeye: to going the extra mile.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #13 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:19 am 
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ProtoJazz wrote:
I really dont know what you mean about limitations in java. Even the new GoPanda client is in Java, And it looks pretty cool. Everything seems to be moving
more towards cross platform (Something like java) Or web based (Like Kaya)
The only real drawbacks to something like Java in a programming sence is that it is dificult to micro manage your resorces. Something a game would need
to be able to run on a mid range pc, while still running the latest DirectX. Go doesnt really need that, It has more then enough resources to run great
without the need for such heavy optimization. C++ is not as common as it used to be, and outside of very specific stuff C isnt really used for programs,


Who is going to buy a high end computer just to have java make it behave like a mid range machine. I don't care for waiting for my clients to start the JVM, and I prefer to be able to do other things while I play go, or at least have them running in the background. Browse the internet, listen to music. Check my email etc. The lack of sophistication for managing resources means there are many programmers out there who can do it without thinking so much, and quite frankly we wished they would quit shipping borky products :roll: that consume so much resources and make the multitasking machines run so slow.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #14 Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:09 am 
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SmoothOper and others: I just clicked the "report post" button and asked the thread to be split...

[admin]
Done. See the 'Java' thread in off topic.
JB
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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #15 Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:11 pm 
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The last really on-topic post was this:

wms wrote:
KGS does OK. As was guessed, it makes enough to cover all costs, plus a small amount more. The KGS Plus subscriptions and the Android client sales both contribute to the income.

I do pay the teachers for their KGS Plus lectures. The pro teachers make a decent amount for each lecture, the amateur teachers make a much smaller amount.

Thanks to everybody for their nice words about KGS. It's been a lot of fun to run. As was guessed, it does earn a little profit, but not enough to cover the time put into it. So I can either look at it as a failed business or as a successful hobby, and I prefer the latter. :) I'm especially thankful to people who have long KGS Plus subscriptions, although I look at it as a hobby, if I had to put money into it to keep it running then I would have shut it down long ago. The people who pay for KGS Plus have kept that from happening.

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 Post subject: Re: How does a go server like KGS/Kaya keep running?
Post #16 Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:43 pm 
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wms wrote:
KGS does OK. As was guessed, it makes enough to cover all costs, plus a small amount more. The KGS Plus subscriptions and the Android client sales both contribute to the income.

I do pay the teachers for their KGS Plus lectures. The pro teachers make a decent amount for each lecture, the amateur teachers make a much smaller amount.

Thanks to everybody for their nice words about KGS. It's been a lot of fun to run. As was guessed, it does earn a little profit, but not enough to cover the time put into it. So I can either look at it as a failed business or as a successful hobby, and I prefer the latter. :) I'm especially thankful to people who have long KGS Plus subscriptions, although I look at it as a hobby, if I had to put money into it to keep it running then I would have shut it down long ago. The people who pay for KGS Plus have kept that from happening.


wms. I just want to say that I appreciate you chiming in to tell us stuff like this. I think its cool that you post on here. It makes the whole go community seem cooler.

Thanks for all the work that you do.


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