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 Post subject: Tesuji's in games
Post #1 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:22 am 
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Hi guys,

I have been reading "Elementary Go Series, Volume 3 – Tesuji".
First of all I want to say I really enjoy reading it and solving the problems.
I have read the first two chapters and now I'm playing games to try to get some practice.
Howhever I don't feel like anything has changed in my games.
I almost never see any of this kind of situations where I can apply the tesuji's in my games.
Did anyone else also experience this while reading the book ?

Cheers,
Otenki

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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #2 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:26 am 
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I have never read that book, but I have done a score of problems, many of which were tesuji problems. For me, it is all about doing the problems until you can just place the stone without even thinking. The patterns become second nature. I do not have a ton of tesuji patterns in my mind, but I know I have some. I play them without thinking about it and often do not even realize they are tesuji. They just seem natural plays in particular shapes and patterns.

What I am trying to say is that for me, it was all about the problems. Just keep doing them, and some will start appearing in your games. You may even be playing some and not realize it.

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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #3 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:45 am 
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I experienced nearly the opposite after solving my way through the first few chapters -- suddenly my opponent's groups were completely falling apart, and I gained several stones essentially overnight.

The by far most important part of "Tesuji" is the first chapter, that talks about reading. If you really apply the guidelines from that chapter in your own games you should be able to defeat opponents at your level easily.

How much time are you spending on reading? If you don't find tesuji in your games, maybe you aren't looking deeply enough. Capturing a critical group is often enough to win the game outright, and should have top priority. Play aggressively, and take your time to read deeply, everything else in the game is secondary.


Last edited by Sverre on Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #4 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:47 am 
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If you've only read 2 chapters it's no surprise. It will take a while longer to really "get" tesuji and start recognising them, keep going and don't worry about it! L+D and Tesuji are the basis of having a really strong game.

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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #5 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:10 am 
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Bruce Wilcox defines tesuji moves as exceptions to elementary contact fight moves. These exceptions usually exploit opponent's bad shapes.

Therefore, before learning the exceptions, it may make sense to internalize the normal first instinct moves (as for example defined in senseis library) for usual shapes.

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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #6 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:26 am 
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I always seem drawn to invoke the "nose tesuji" I learned in that book. Most of the time I don't even play it, but I recognize that my opponent can't make a certain cut or push through because of it, and then I get to play elsewhere accordingly.

- Marty Lund

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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #7 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:31 am 
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Why don't you post a game? We might be able to show you where some tesuji could have occurred. Or it's possible that you're missing chances to use tesuji because either you yourself or your opponents have shaky basics, and therefore the fight is won or lost before any tesuji is deployed.

If you're actually 16k I don't think you should feel pressured to see tesuji in your games all the time. Just being able to solve the problems in the book is pretty impressive. Being able to find them in your games requires a great deal of reading (as you may remember from the Introduction chapter of the book).

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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #8 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:02 pm 
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I understand what otenki feels, I too have thought "if only my games had all these cool tesuji problems in them". Problems are nice in that you know there is an answer. Games are not like that and usually there won't be some super-cool winning tesuji. But if you approach the game as if there is you will read better and play a much sharper game and seize on the opportunities that do arise. Games are not often going to just serve tesuji problems to you on a plate (well, except for this one :D ), you need to do some reading to construct a position for the tesuji. General feelings of shape are a big help here, and doing problems will develop this.

Also if you look at games you might think there's not many tesujis in them. But there are always many unplayed variations below the surface which will contain tesuji, and therefore the players had to play another line. As an example, consider the following problem (which I seem to recall actually is in the Elementary Go Series Tesuji book):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Escape the net
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:w2: is a nice tesuji to escape the net. But rewinding a bit there are some other unplayed tesujis. When white extends at 1 if black ignores white will play the shape point of 3 which threatens a snapback at a. Black can avoid the snapback by connecting at a. So you might feel sad that you didn't get to play your cool snapback tesuji. But that's missing the point, by playing :w3: in sente white gains a lot (destroy black's eye shape and strengthens his stones) and black is seriously suffering. In fact he is likely to die when white continues the attack at b unless he can find the tesuji of his own at c, but even then it's awful for black. So that's why black should play 2 where white played 3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Snapback threat
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . c . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . b . X a X O . . |
$$ | , . . . 3 . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Now let's rewind even more to how this shape often arrises: 3-3 invasion of 4-4 plus large knights move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Invasion joseki pt 1
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | , . . . . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


White gets the corner in sente, black strong influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 Invasion joseki pt 2
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | , . . . . . X O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


But what happens if white extends in the centre before living in the corner? If black answers at a then white will come back to live in the corner and white has gained as black no longer can net white's 2 cutting stones, thanks to white's escape tesuji in the first diagram. But black can capture the stone on the 2nd line which kills white in the corner. White can then play at a and try to capture those stones before black kills the corner, but he will narrowly lose this fight.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 White can't extend now
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | , . . . a . X O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


However, let's say we start with this position. A white stone at k17 is quite a plausible stone to appear in the fuseki (the top left corner doesn't matter).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Plus k17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If we do the same 3-3 invasion joseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Invasion joseki with k17 pt 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Now white can extend on the outside before living inside: if black capture the stone on the 2nd line to kill the corner, the k17 stones means white now ends up winning the semeai on the top side stones (actually I didn't read it 100%, just going from memory here, so if someone finds k17 doesn't work then move it to l17 as that is definitely enough for white to win).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Black loses
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 9 . 2 8 X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 . X O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


So black has to answer at 14 and then white lives in the corner. But this is a gain for white as now black's net at 16 doesn't quite work as white has a. That's not to say white should play it immediately, but it is really bad aji so white can either bring those stones out, or else black has to spend 2 moves to capture the cutting stones instead of one.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 White gains, fake net
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


So, rewinding some more, given the presence of k17 blocking on the top is usually a mistake (or at least if you block that side you can't plan hane at r15, you must either q15 extend or r18 hane in corner) and instead black should block from the other side. Playing the usual 3-3 invasion would be bad as black's wall ends up overconcentrated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Block right, bad extend
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . 8 6 4 3 1 a . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 2 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


However, the double hane is a good choice for black to keep the corner territory:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Block right, good double hane
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 5 0 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . 7 4 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


So in conclusion if you see the following block you might not think there's any tesujis going on. However, beneath the surface there are plenty of them!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Hidden tesujis
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


And, yes, you've guessed it, it's the inevitable OGS game example :lol: . http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=77851

I am sure it will not be long until you do experience the thrill of finding a killer tesuji inspired by the Tesuji book in your games!


This post by Uberdude was liked by 12 people: daal, Dusk Eagle, hyperpape, illluck, joby, jts, karaklis, Ortho, otenki, quantumf, Sverre, Xyiana
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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #9 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:55 am 
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Hey guys,

Thank you all for your replies !
In the meantime I have been able to see some tesuji's in my games !
Throwins, crosscuts and the nose tesuji...
Also Uberdude thanks for posting that, it was nice to see how tesuji's can evolve from fuseki :-)
I wonder if there is a book which has more of this kind of practical examples on how to create this kind of situations.
I guess its just a matter of playing a lot of games so you know when they can be used and will arise.

Cheers,
Otenki

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 Post subject: Re: Tesuji's in games
Post #10 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:42 pm 
Oza
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otenki wrote:
I wonder if there is a book which has more of this kind of practical examples on how to create this kind of situations.


Tesuji and Anti-suji of Go illustrates all of its tesuji with positions that arise from common joseki, noseki, invasions, endgame moves, etc.

A surprising number of the tesuji in problem books actually arise from common board situations. Just yesterday, in fact, Bill Spight posted the refutation of a certain non-joseki line, and one of the final position was one I recognized from a tesuji book, but had just assumed was a silly stylized problem.

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