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 Post subject: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:25 pm 
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a translation of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n06tQJiQ680, a 2 hour video, with a lot of variations

the latest is that weiqitv will look at 5 games of alphago self-play, with longer time controls than the 50 self-play published at 2 mins/move, or 8-10 hours/game

this is the 2nd of those 5




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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Is this Japanese rule?
So we get even more AlphaGo games?

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Post #3 Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:02 pm 
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Wouahhhhhh, thank you so much. I tried to watch but i couldn't understand. Apparently they released 5 games, so I guess 5 videos.

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #4 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:57 am 
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Quote:
Is this Japanese rule?
So we get even more AlphaGo games?


In China this game was given as B+0.75 with Chinese rules. As far as I know only two games have been released so far.

FineArt has also been in recent action again, beating a trio led by Gu Li.

In Japan, DeepZen (immediately after its Mlily debut) began a long series of games against the Japanese National Training Squad. I have about 50 games and DeepZen lost 6, from a quick count. What is striking about these games is how many of them end so early - and maybe only two were counted. In one, the human won by 0.5 (Japanese rules were used here). I think one of the most satisfying things on earth must be to beat a Monte Carlo computer by 0.5!. I believe Ueno Asami can now also claim the distinction of being the first woman to beat a computer in an even game, which must have some significance considering the huge growth in women's go in Japan at present (all down to some pop singer whose name I've forgotten).

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:12 am 
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I don't know about rule set but fan said 7.5 komi and B+0.5, I.e. 0.25 stones

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #6 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:40 am 
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I played that game to the end and got the following end position:



In that "roll-out" (OHNE GEWÄHR! ;-) ) white filled the last dame-point and the result is B184:W177 (B66:W59), so B+0.5 under both rule-sets. Under the old komi settings of the first 50 games, Black would have lost - but both Black and White would have played differently then. I wonder if these games no. >50 are really played under Japanese rules.

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:41 am 
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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #8 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:25 am 
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Oh yeah! White can't fill in that liberty. But then, when Black does, White has to cover inside. That way Black would win by 1.5 points... There must be something wrong with my sequence.
Edit: There was that note that White has to play B9 eventually. Right now, I don't see that. Black would have to play inside Whites territory to force that move but that wouldn't gain anything. Or am I wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #9 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:29 am 
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Baywa wrote:
There was that note that White has to play B9 eventually. Right now, I don't see that.

B B8 after dame fill?

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #10 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:25 am 
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OK, moha, got it! So White has to play B9 before all the dame are filled in. But then (with Uberdude's remark) I'm back to my B+1.5 score. I'll figure it out (sooner or later).
Edit: Argh! I didn't read dhu163's post. Then it's Chinese rule, 7.5 point komi and B+0.5. So everything's fine.
Edit2: I'm still at it (sigh!). Now I'm "convinced" that B+9 on the board (Chinese) / B+8 (Japanese). But never mind!

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Last edited by Baywa on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #11 Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:36 am 
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Thanks for the translation :) . Some interesting stuff in here, especially the new 3-3 invasion at the top left, with AlphaGo directly attaching under rather than just bumping as we're used to. We might have to switch to that one in our practice games now ;) . The comment about how AlphaGo's games with itself are a complete mess whereas in games against humans it plays just solid and slowly wins without doing anything special was interesting too.

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:19 am 
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Simba wrote:
the new 3-3 invasion at the top left, with AlphaGo directly attaching under rather than just bumping as we're used to. We might have to switch to that one in our practice games now ;)


You're giving it too much credit. The attach under has been around for a long time now. As far back as the 90s at least.

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #13 Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:46 am 
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shoryuu wrote:
Simba wrote:
the new 3-3 invasion at the top left, with AlphaGo directly attaching under rather than just bumping as we're used to. We might have to switch to that one in our practice games now ;)


You're giving it too much credit. The attach under has been around for a long time now. As far back as the 90s at least.


lol, I'm aware of this :) I'm making the point that AlphaGo until now preferred to bump rather than attach underneath, and as such dhu and I have been playing the bump exclusively in our practice games. So now we'll have to go back to the usual way instead.

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #14 Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Just passing by to tell dhu a big THANKS for translating the video! :) It's been a real pleasure to go through the sgf and I know it must have been hours of work
:salute:

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #15 Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:30 pm 
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:) Thanks, Yeah, it probably takes me double the time of the video to make this sgf. (edit: it's probably more like 6 hours ...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD-Z1-V1tTQ

game 4


My feeling is that games 1 and 2 were long games and still have the most interesting variations.



I'm pretty sure I've mistranslated the title of this video


Attachments:
alphago long self-play 4.sgf [20.92 KiB]
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Last edited by dhu163 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #16 Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:24 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nljNZT4UP3U

"Liu: Though all our games have had some intense fighting, but it's still not beyond comprehension/imagination

and today we invited Lian Xiao, who is known for his fighting strength.

Fan: today's game, it would be hard to find a game more complicated than this. The fighting is very messy, from start to end. All sorts of exchanges, often in places you can't imagine."

I'm up to move 22, at 20 mins out of 133. I'll continue working on it tonight. The intro raised our expectations high for an exciting game. It's probably particularly worth it to go through this one slowly. (19:24)

edit: I'm up to move 108, at 60 mins. Fan Hui has finally said the opening ends here, and the complications start (22:56)
edit: 101 mins move 206, sorry I haven't found the time/energy to continue this last week
edit: all done



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alphago long self-play 5.sgf [44.82 KiB]
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Last edited by dhu163 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #17 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:46 pm 
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dhu163 wrote:
I'm up to move 108.

I added the five SGFs to my AlphaGo page http://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/go/games/games/AlphaGo/. Corrections and comments are welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #18 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:54 pm 
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I'm surprised that DeepMind doesn't mention these five new games on its official site. Have they publicly announced them to a Western audience at all? Or have they just showed them to the Chinese pros that commented them?

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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #19 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:47 pm 
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sorry for taking so long, I've had orchestra practice, and got too tired. I've completed the game 5 review above.

Yes, sad they only put it out in Chinese.


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 Post subject: Re: alphago self-analysis by fan hui
Post #20 Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:21 am 
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That was like in one of these martial arts movies where the ninjas / ronin are swirling through the air and running up the walls while simultaneously kicking, slashing and punching in all directions... :rambo:

White won by 1/2 point although Black had 13 more prisoners (43:30). So, was making the seki in the lower right corner the decisive move then?

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