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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #21 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:58 pm 
Oza

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Fedya wrote:
Ah, but in Russian you need to know your voiced and voiceless consonants. Враг (transliterated vrag) and врак (transliterated vrak) are pronounced the same, for example. And then there's a word like мозг, transliterated mozg but pronounced mosk since the last two consonants become devoiced.

And let's not get started on vowel reduction. :mad:


Same in Japanese to some extent.

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #22 Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:15 am 
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Go_Japan wrote:
I tried an experiment to help you with your question. I wrote all the words in Japanese and put them into Google translate. There is a "pronunciation" button on the bottom when you put something into Google Translate (little speaker icon). The pronunciation is surprisingly good! So, feel free to copy and past the words below into google translate and getting a good pronunciation.

I am also sharing this link to the Google Translate Page https://goo.gl/g4xKM0 that should give you all the words that you asked for (in the same order, so you know which words are which). You can simply delete the words you are not interested in or copy and paste into a new window for pronunciation practice. Just be sure you select Japanese language in case Google thinks you are typing Chinese. The pronunciation will be different in Chinese.

Edit: I thought I would add a couple of pointers too. On some words, you will extend the 'Oh' sound it is like a double 'ooh'. For example, Byo-yomi is actually written, byo-o-yo-mi in Japanese characters. You don't say Byo then oh. You just extend the Oh sound slightly. When you listen to the pronunciation on the google, you should be able to hear it. Other words you get that same issue are Jouseki and Moyou.

Copy of the words in the same order you listed them:
アタリ
手筋
詰碁
ダメ
ハネ

先手
後手
秒読み
セキ
定石
見合い
模様
ノビ
手抜き


This is really good. It can be improved by adding a period after each word.

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #23 Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Some Japanese pronunciation that are difficult for Westerners are the long vowels, like "o" in joseki. Pronounce it jooseki. two "o" sounds. Then there are the syllables like "su" and "tsu" which are not strongly voiced, as in tesuji (tehsji) and tsuke (tskeh). Or Sute ishi (sacrifice stone) steishi. Finally, there are regional pronunciation differences.


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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #24 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:56 am 
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Quote:
Pronunciation of Japanese terms

is really easy. Consonants are pronounced as in English, and vowels are pronounced as in Spanish. This means that

"a" is always pronounced roughly as in "sun",
"e" is always pronounced as in "pet",
"i" is always pronounced as in "pit",
"o" is always pronounced roughly as in "pot", and
"u" is always pronounced as in "boot".

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #25 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:02 am 
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Interesting stuff.

I've been learning Japanese considerably longer than I've been learning go (despite this I'd say I'm about 10kyu at Japanese language(!))
I find it difficult to use Japanese pronunciation once a concept gains currency in an english speaking environment.

This happens commonly outside of go - for example in north England I would always hear karate pronounced something like kuh-rah-ty with a stress on the rah. To speak a sentence in your normal english accent and then pronounce the word more like kah-rah-tey might sound a little pretentious.
I always think that atari for example is too common a part of english go conversations to pronounce in the japanese style. Rarer concepts I would pronounce in the Japanese sound system.

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Post #26 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:32 am 
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luigi wrote:
Quote:
Pronunciation of Japanese terms

is really easy. Consonants are pronounced as in English, and vowels are pronounced as in Spanish. This means that

"a" is always pronounced roughly as in "sun",
"e" is always pronounced as in "pet",
"i" is always pronounced as in "pit",
"o" is always pronounced roughly as in "pot", and
"u" is always pronounced as in "boot".


For people familiar with English, I think only the "e" example is correct.

http://iprc.soest.hawaii.edu/users/furue/jp-pron.html
This seems to have a more accurate one for English speakers.


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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #27 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:11 am 
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oren wrote:
luigi wrote:
Quote:
Pronunciation of Japanese terms

is really easy. Consonants are pronounced as in English, and vowels are pronounced as in Spanish. This means that

"a" is always pronounced roughly as in "sun",
"e" is always pronounced as in "pet",
"i" is always pronounced as in "pit",
"o" is always pronounced roughly as in "pot", and
"u" is always pronounced as in "boot".


For people familiar with English, I think only the "e" example is correct.

http://iprc.soest.hawaii.edu/users/furue/jp-pron.html
This seems to have a more accurate one for English speakers.

It seems the "u" is correct as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #28 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:31 am 
Judan

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Quote:
Pronunciation of Japanese terms

luigi wrote:
oren wrote:
luigi wrote:
is really easy. Consonants are pronounced as in English, and vowels are pronounced as in Spanish. This means that

"a" is always pronounced roughly as in "sun",
"e" is always pronounced as in "pet",
"i" is always pronounced as in "pit",
"o" is always pronounced roughly as in "pot", and
"u" is always pronounced as in "boot".


For people familiar with English, I think only the "e" example is correct.

http://iprc.soest.hawaii.edu/users/furue/jp-pron.html
This seems to have a more accurate one for English speakers.

It seems the "u" is correct as well.


Well, as I pronounce sun, the short u is like the Sanskrit a, not the Japanese a, as in san. {shrug}

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #29 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:34 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
luigi wrote:
It seems the "u" is correct as well.
Well, as I pronounce sun, the short u is like the Sanskrit a, not the Japanese a, as in san. {shrug}
No, I mean
Quote:
"u" is always pronounced as in "boot".

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #30 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:57 pm 
Judan

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luigi wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
luigi wrote:
It seems the "u" is correct as well.
Well, as I pronounce sun, the short u is like the Sanskrit a, not the Japanese a, as in san. {shrug}
No, I mean
Quote:
"u" is always pronounced as in "boot".


Oh! Yeah, except for being short (lasting about ¼ sec.) :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #31 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:50 pm 
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I speak beginner level Japanese and this thread is just confusing to me. I recommend the OP to download any beginner level Japanese app,like Duolingo which has Japanese now or find some website or Youtube video that shows pronunciation of the hiragana. It's much simpler hearing it than reading text that shows how you should pronounce it.


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Post #32 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
luigi wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Well, as I pronounce sun, the short u is like the Sanskrit a, not the Japanese a, as in san. {shrug}
No, I mean
Quote:
"u" is always pronounced as in "boot".


Oh! Yeah, except for being short (lasting about ¼ sec.) :)


Probably there are some differences between British English and American English?

boot:

BE [buːt] (http://www.macmillandictionary.com/pron ... ish/boot_1) AE [but] (http://www.macmillandictionary.com/pron ... can/boot_1)

fool:

BE [fuːl] (http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dict ... ish/fool_1) AE [ful] (http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dict ... can/fool_1)

full:

BE [fʊl] AE [fʊl]

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Post #33 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:00 am 
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Quote:
Probably there are some differences between British English and American English?
Yes... which UK dialect ? And which US dialect ?

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #34 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Proper Japanese Pronunciation:

Japanese words are made up of morae (basically syllables, see end note for difference). Each mora should be pronounced for the exact same length of time. There is no stressed mora in Japanese, although some will be pronounced at a higher pitch (which ones depends on the dialect). There are no silent letters.

Each mora has the following form: [Optional Consonant] - [Vowel]. No consonant other than "n" can appear without a vowel after it. No mora contains two vowels or two consonants, although a single vowel or consonant can be lengthened to take up two morae.


Vowels are pronounced like this (double quotes = Japanese, single quote = English):

"a" is like the 'a' in 'father'

"e" is like the 'e' in 'bet'. It doesn't have a 'y' sound after it, although it can sound like this at times to English speakers (e.g. the word "me" is pronounced like the word 'met' without the 't', not like the word 'may').

"i" is pronounced like the 'ea' in 'tea' or 'beat', but shorter in length.

"o" is pronounced like the word 'oh', but shorter in length and without the 'w' sound after it.

"u" is pronounced like the 'ue' in the word 'blue', but shorter in length.


Vowels can be lengthened by writing them twice in a row (e.g. kaa, kee, kii). The exception is the vowel "o" with is lengthened by writing a "u" after it, although it is pronounced like an "o". Lengthened vowels count as two morae (so "kou" is pronounced "ko-o", with the "o" pronounced once but held for twice the time as a normal vowel). Often in English, lengthened vowels are not written (e.g. the first "o" in byo-yomi is long, so it could be written "byou-yomi", pronounced "byo-o-yo-mi").

In academic contexts, lengthened vowels are written with a line over the vowel (e.g. byō, jōseki, etc).

Often, the vowels "u" and "i" in morae such as "shi", "su", and "tsu" are pronounced very softly, and sound as if they are not pronounced at all. So, for example, "hoshi" can sound almost like it is pronounced as 'ho-sh' (still as two syllables).

The vowels "ai", "ei", and "oi" are properly pronounced as two morae: "a-i", "e-i", and "o-i". So, the word "Meijin" in pronounced as four morae: "me-i-ji-n" ("n" being its own mora). At the pace of speech commonly used, these will sound like they are one-syllable diphthongs (so "meijin" sounds like 'may-jean'), but this is not the case.

The consonants are basically pronounced like in English, with a few things to make note of:

The "r" is pronounced with a tongue tap, sort of like a mix between the English 'l' and 'r'. Sometimes, it will sound like an 'l' to English speakers.

When consonant has a "y" after it before the vowel, the mora is pronounced as one mora (e.g. the word "byo" in "byo-yomi" is pronounced as one syllable [ignoring the long "o"], almost like the English word 'yo' with a 'b' before it.). The exceptions is that the "y" is not pronounced with the consonants "J", "Sh" and "Ch", and often is not written in English (e.g. "shya" is pronounced "sha", "jyo" is pronounced "jo", "chyu" is pronounced "chu", etc.). In these cases, the 'y" when written is simply due to the way Japanese hiragana works.

The "h" in the mora "hi" and "hy + vowel (hyo, hya, etc)" is not pronounced an "h", but rather has a whistling sound to it. There is no equivalent sound in English. The International Phonetic Alphabet symbol for this sound is "ç". An example of a word containing this sound is "hiki".

The "h" (often written as an "f") in the mora "hu/fu" is pronounced like an 'f', but without the teeth touching the lips. The International Phonetic Alphabet symbol is "ɸ". An example word with this sound is "kifu".

The "n" by itself as its own mora (e.g. in the word "sanrensei" ["sa-n-re-n-se-i"]) is pronounced like a "m" before a "p", "b", or "m". Often, it will be written as an "m" in these cases. An example word, although not strictly a Go word, is "gambatte" (Good luck/give it your best). Sometimes the "n" will also sound like "ng".

The "n" can also appear with a vowel, such as in the word "Nihon". Sometimes it is unclear in English as to whether or not the "n" is at the start of a mora or its own mora. In these cases, an apostrophe can be used. For example, in "honinbo/honinbou", the first "n" is its own mora, so the word is "ho-n-i-n-bo-o", and not "ho-ni-n-bo-o", and the word can be written as "hon'inbo" to reflect this.

The "ts" in the mora "tsu" is always pronounced like the 't's' in the English word 'let's'.

The morae "dzu" and "zu" are pronounced identically, with a 'z' sound. The difference in writing is simply due to the Japanese hiragana system.

Double consonants are pronounced as a slight pause on the consonant (as two morae).

There are a few other differences, but they are to subtle to mention and can realistically only be learned by copying native Japanese speakers.


Edit: I made an error. The "n" (ん in hirgana) is a mora by itself, and not at the end of a mora. Similar to the "ai/ei/oi" situation, it will often sound as if it is pronounced at the end of the mora, but this is not the case. However, these words are still pronounced as a single syllable. It is situations like these where the mora and syllable are different. Syllables have to do with vowels and groupings of phonemes, whereas morae have to do with timing and rhythm of speech. So, each mora is pronounced for the same length of time, but a syllable might contain multiple morae (lengthened vowels and consonants, and "n" morae). Therefore, words like "san" and "byou" should be pronounced for the same length of time as words like "tsuke" (all are two morae), despite "byou/san" being one syllable and "tsuke" being two. Other example words with differing syllable and mora count are: gambatte (5 morae [ga-m-ba-t-te], 3 syllables [gam-ba-tte]), and toukyou (4 morae [to-o-kyo-o], 2 syllables [tou-kyou]).

"Ai/Ei/Oi", I believe, are both two morae and two syllables in Japanese, as each vowel is properly pronounced distinctly (although rapidly) rather than as a diphthong. I cannot find an academic source confirming this, because syllables are rarely used with regard to Japanese, but it seems to be true based on the definition of a syllable. In English loanwords they are often pronounced as a diphthong and thus as a single syllable. So, Meijin is three syllables (me-i-jin) and four morae (me-i-ji-n), although it would not be wrong for an English speaker to pronounce it as two syllables (like 'may-jean') as a loanword.

Morae are more relevant to pronunciation than syllables in Japanese, so that is what I used above.

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 Post subject: Re: Pronunciation of Japanese terms
Post #35 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:17 am 
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I am not a Japanese native speaker, but I've been learning the language long enough to pick up some things. (And I still have a long way to go before becoming completely fluent :oops: )

When compared to European languages, Japanese sounds more like Castilian Spanish or Greek than like English or German, especially in the vowels. However, whereas in Castilian Spanish A,O, and U are pronounced at the back of the mouth and E and I are pronounced at the front, in Japanese all the vowels are pronounced in the same general parts of the mouth as in Spanish, but closer to the middle and with less mouth movement, resulting in "softer-sounding" vowels. This is why sometimes the Japanese U will sound more like the U in French than the one in Spanish.

The pronunciation of Japanese vowels and consonants is actually much like that found in Polynesian languages such as New Zealand Maori. The vowels in Maori and in Japanese are almost a perfect match. The consonants are also closely matched in sound, but Japanese has 13 consonants and 5 vowels, versus 10 consonants and 5 vowels in Maori. In both languages, there is vowel lengthening, indicated by vowel macron when written, in which some words have a vowel held for slightly longer than normal. So, kyû ("step" or elementary grade below 1st dan) has a U sound held for a ½ second longer than the U in kyu. (repeated and consecutive capture of a single stone) is different from ko (child or crumbs); the former is pronounced "koh", but as as monophthong, not as diphthong. The ei vowel is not pronounced "ay-ee", but is actually a lengthened E sound, like "eeh". Finally, in both Maori and Japanese vowels are sometimes muted to ease pronunciation when talking quickly, especially the U sound.

Japanese is not completely similar to Maori, though. The vowel patterns that occur in Japanese tend to remind me more of an Altaic language, such as Turkish or Mongolian. In fact, it's often said that Japanese has more in common with Central Asian languages than with Southeast Asian and South Pacific ones. Even Japanese grammar has a general resemblance to that of Türkic, Mongol, and Tungusic languages.

Still, just listen to this clip from TV New Zealand's Te Karere Maori-language news program and ask yourself if the consonants and vowels are similar to those of Japanese or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRP4UUIFc7g

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