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 Post subject: what to call this move?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:18 pm 
Honinbo

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i'm translating another video, and i don't know what to call this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . W X . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


in korean, it's literally called something like "pinch". but i don't know what english speakers would call it. not really a wedge... worst case, i'll just say "pinch" or maybe "move"

thoughts?

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Post #2 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:54 pm 
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Attachment? (But not really.)

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 Post subject: Re: what to call this move?
Post #3 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:16 pm 
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It seems to be called atekomi in Japanese or angle wegde in English: https://senseis.xmp.net/?Atekomi

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Post #4 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:26 pm 
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Hi Kirby, jlt,
I think of attachment (direct contact with the enemy) is one property found in multiple moves: hané, push, block, turn, clamp, cross-cut (attaching to 2 enemy stones), first-line throw in (attaching to 2 enemy stones), wedge (attaching to 2 enemy stones); some throw-in can attach to 3 enemy stones; etc.

When you say it's pinch in Korean, can it also be interpreted as a squeeze?

If this "works", you can call it a tesuji. :)
gennan: oh, angle wedge... used in some books ( Fujisawa's Basic Tesujis... )

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Post #5 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:29 am 
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Actually, I believe that this move is called "atetsuke"; there's a slight difference to "atekomi" in that it is not next to friendly stones. But it is usually lumped together with "atekomi".

I wrote on my website about it; there you can also practice related problems: http://gogamespace.com/pinch/

Hwang In-seong 8-dan made a lecture about this type of move last week in the Yunguseng Dojang, and he also called it "pinch".

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Post #6 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:17 am 
Judan

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Marcel, I just woke up so maybe I'm being dumb, but in your first problem how does atekomi succeed if White just ataris on second line then connect.

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Post #7 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:23 am 
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I'm not sure which of the problems is the first. They seem to shuffle when you start :)

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Post #8 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:31 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Marcel, I just woke up so maybe I'm being dumb, but in your first problem how does atekomi succeed if White just ataris on second line then connect.


Yakago wrote:
I'm not sure which of the problems is the first. They seem to shuffle when you start :)


Yes, they shuffle; that's a feature, not a bug. :)

I need to think about a way to give feedback on the problems, i.e., "this problem is wrong" or "it should have this tag" etc. Maybe I should also find a way to link to one specific problem directly.

Anyway, each problem shows exactly one line, usually without variations except if there are two or more equally good moves, which could happen in capturing races. You can go to the next move using the "Hint" button.

In the meantime, could you please post a screenshot?

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 Post subject: Re: what to call this move?
Post #9 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:11 am 
Judan

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OGS problems also have this shuffle and rotate and flip colours bugfeature but it makes sharing and discussing problems next to impossible. There are many Reddit posts along the lines "help me with this problem plz, it says if black plays c1 White D1 kills but what about a2!?" to which the baffled audience respond "but it's White to play you idiot!", "What do you mean c1, the problem is in the top right corner and White starts t17". Etc.

A solution would be to encode the problem id and rotation etc in the URL for the user to copy (and have a share link), which with modern browsers you can set from JavaScript without causing a page reload.

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 Post subject: Re: what to call this move?
Post #10 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:21 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
A solution would be to encode the problem id and rotation etc in the URL for the user to copy (and have a share link), which with modern browsers you can set from JavaScript without causing a page reload.


I'm not entering the problems one-by-one in different SGF trees (or files). Instead, I'm entering a tree of variations and generate problems from those trees.

I am frequently updating the original trees from which I generate the problems, so for some problems the initial setup changes; for others some move might change. This makes it difficult to get a consistent id between runs.

So far the only idea I could come up with is to calculate a SHA1 from the setup (AB[], AW[]) and move (B[], W[]) data for each problem, disregarding comments and markup. But if a problem's id changes and I re-generate and re-upload the problem set, then links will still get broken.

Also, the rotation is irrelevant; this is done in the browser. When a problem is displayed, it is randomly rotated and colors are swapped randomly as well. So even if you just use the "Prev" and "Next" buttons to navigate between problems in a collection, they change orientation all the time. But for discussions the rotation *is* relevant. Hm, it's difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: what to call this move?
Post #11 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:52 am 
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Kirby wrote:
i don't know what to call this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . W X . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Call it what it is: both a "connection" and a "threat to cut".

I do not care about a traditional shape name, which does not say what the move's meanings are.

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Post #12 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:37 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Call it what it is: both a "connection" and a "threat to cut".

I do not care about a traditional shape name, which does not say what the move's meanings are.


I agree it is sensible and best to use your English, as above, to describe the move. But you are wrong (as usual) about the "traditional" name - I assume you mean "Japanese" atekomi, which does clearly imply what its meaning is. Look up atekomi in an ordinary Japanese dictionary to see what nuances the word brings to a Japanese go player. Furthermore, it's not a "shape name," it's a "move name."

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 Post subject: Re: what to call this move?
Post #13 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:42 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Call it what it is: both a "connection" and a "threat to cut".

I do not care about a traditional shape name, which does not say what the move's meanings are.


I agree it is sensible and best to use your English, as above, to describe the move. But you are wrong (as usual) about the "traditional" name - I assume you mean "Japanese" atekomi, which does clearly imply what its meaning is. Look up atekomi in an ordinary Japanese dictionary to see what nuances the word brings to a Japanese go player. Furthermore, it's not a "shape name," it's a "move name."


In the context of a narrative or a conversation, having a name for the move makes sense imo.

'... when black played this angle wedge...'
'... maybe you could play an angle wedge here...'

It's difficult to talk about a 'simultaneous connection and threat to cut'. Then we go back to calling everything a 'move'. I.e. no 'hane' 'attachment' 'approach' etc.
I think that would diminish the way we talk about go

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Post #14 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:06 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
But you are wrong (as usual) about the "traditional" name


A bit too strongly put, no? :-p

Anyway, I can see both points here: to a non-native speaker, the traditional Japanese name has little meaning. same with the Korean term - otherwise, why am I translating at all? And to native speakers, these terms do have meaning and nuance.

The audience consists of English speakers, so I’ll aim for English terminology except for widely adopted terms like atari, joseki, etc.

Thanks to all of you for your input. This thread turned out to be more interesting than I anticipated.

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Post #15 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:08 am 
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So what is the Korean term for that move, that translates to "pinch"?

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Post #16 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:14 am 
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Marcel Grünauer wrote:
So what is the Korean term for that move, that translates to "pinch"?


찝다 (jjipda)

In a Korean English Go term dictionary, I also saw this conveyed as “choke”

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Post #17 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:43 am 
Judan

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For the video subtitles where brevity is important I might say "white wedges in", "white defends by wedging in" etc, which has an implied "wedging in to the kosumi" but that'd be too long and I wouldn't want to use the term kosumi for that audience, and 'diagonal move' is ever longer.

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Post #18 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:48 am 
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I thought there had been consensus in previous discussions about go terminology that sometimes keeping the Japanese (or Korean or Chinese) word for something could be preferred to awkward, clumsy English phrases, for example hane. In this case "angle wedge" still needs explanation. Of course, too, there are subtle but still important distinctions that are lost in English versions. I hear players using hane andosae indiscriminately. Some of these difficulties arise because the "translator" doesn't fully understand subtle meanings of the Japanese words.

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Post #19 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:57 am 
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gowan wrote:
I hear players using hane andosae indiscriminately.


And "nobi".

During the Vienna Go Camp last August, some players called everything a "nobi". There was "nobi", "nobi up" (a.k.a. "tachi"), "nobi down" (a.k.a. "sagari") and more. This led Viktor Lin to make a satirical article: https://viktorlingo.com/2019/08/21/nobi/


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 Post subject: Re: what to call this move?
Post #20 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:05 am 
Honinbo

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gowan wrote:
I thought there had been consensus in previous discussions


Consensus on L19? That’s cause for celebration! :clap:

Anyway, to your point, it’s not clear to me that “atekomi” is self explanatory to this audience.

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