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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #21 Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:01 pm 
Gosei
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Uberdude wrote:
Interesting change of tack Knotwilg, it wasn't long ago you were extolling the virtues of Dwyrin basics!


Indeed not. And I think they are still quite valid, even if less so than your own grand theme of LZ's opening gospel. It's the attitude that has grown badly on me, including the persistent fraudulous sandbagging, which goes way beyond the inevitable ranking up the server of your choice. I can actually appreciate the bantering voices and the showmanship but not the combination of pointing out stupid opponent moves which are not that bad while lauding his own basic-moves-not-requiring-reading which are actually not that good. What I like least is the bad advice, explicit or subliminal, that reading is overrated.

BadukDoctor is obviously stronger and also much more friendly to his unsuspecting opponents, but unsuspecting they still are and he's gotten in the same paradox of hoping his opponent is not using AI while being too strong for his rank himself. Inevitable as that may be when ranking up, lamenting the detrimental effect of fraud on your scheme, while being indifferent to the casual dent in the opponent's curve, and putting that on display, isn't very nice. Just quietly rank up to where you should be, maxing bots in the process, and come back on youtube when you are what you should be. Now Badukdoctor's lessons are great and he doesn't spread myth on how to improve: reading is important.

Same for Yeongwoo who's somewhere in between dwyrin's showmanship and Badukdoctor's more composed attitude. Good lectures, somewhat "rich" as you say on calling potential AI usage.

All of them are doing me a bigger service with their lectures - but I understand that if live games are both easier to engineer and more popular, this is what you go for as a semi-pro-tuber. That's why I call onto viewers to discourage them - but hey, who am I to decide what's valuable.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #22 Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:06 pm 
Honinbo

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Knotwilg wrote:
Inevitable as that may be when ranking up, lamenting the detrimental effect of fraud on your scheme, while being indifferent to the casual dent in the opponent's curve, and putting that on display, isn't very nice. Just quietly rank up to where you should be, maxing bots in the process, and come back on youtube when you are what you should be.


The one bit that I don't quite follow is why it makes a difference if you are recording the rank up process. Either way you'd be putting a casual dent in the opponent's curve; it's just a matter of whether or not others are watching while you do it. Do you mean that advertising the wins isn't kind?

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #23 Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:09 pm 
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Let's give BadukDoctor's Challenger Moves series some clicks/likes, a great collection of more advanced techniques for dan players: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... Jv2lPwrN7J :)

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #24 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:37 pm 
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I never got into this type of Go content, but I always thought: It wouldn't cost anything to tell the opponents "I am X dan in this system, do you fancy a teaching game without handicap. It will be shown on youtube on this channel..." and take it from there.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #25 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:48 pm 
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tapir wrote:
I never got into this type of Go content, but I always thought: It wouldn't cost anything to tell the opponents "I am X dan in this system, do you fancy a teaching game without handicap. It will be shown on youtube on this channel..." and take it from there.


But that would involve finding someone that speaks the same language and then spending time to review the game, which is apparently too much effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #26 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:12 pm 
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Reading this thread to learn about sandbag teaching surprises me. When I teach by showing mistakes in my games, I try to approach 50% each for my opponents' / my mistakes because everybody's mistakes are important and, on average, both players make roughly 50% of the mistakes. Likewise, for good play. Other mistakes-related teaching exhibits those of a) professional players, b) kyu players to explain their different kinds of mistakes or c) mistakes understood by applying correct theoy.

Mistakes of kyu players occur in their even games or in teaching games. I think that in both types of games the kyus' mistakes are similar. Therefore, mistakes from teaching games can also be used for later explanations. However, when doing so, sandbagging need not occur. Not even, if one shows the development of consequences of particular mistakes of a kyu player in one teaching game. In fact, such is a valid aspect of teaching.

What then is sandbagging teaching? Playing a much weaker opponent, pretending him to have been of equal rank, then demonstrated one's extremely easy win without any effortful thinking?

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #27 Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:27 am 
Gosei
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Mistakes of kyu players occur in their even games or in teaching games. I think that in both types of games the kyus' mistakes are similar.


This is where at least dwyrin seems to disagree: he states a kyu won't play their "natural" game in a teaching game against a high dan they are conscious about. My argument: they aren't playing their natural game against a high dan when unconscious either. You say they are in both contexts. :)

RobertJasiek wrote:
What then is sandbagging teaching? Playing a much weaker opponent, pretending him to have been of equal rank, then demonstrated one's extremely easy win without any effortful thinking?


Quite so. And propagating the idea that effortful thinking is not necessary to perform at shodan level in the process.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #28 Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:13 am 
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I think if you tell someone it's a teaching game and that you're recording it for youtube or that they're live on Twitch it probably would affect the play of many or most people. Just as a hunch. Whether this matters or not I'm not sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #29 Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:20 am 
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Boidhre wrote:
I think if you tell someone it's a teaching game and that you're recording it for youtube or that they're live on Twitch it probably would affect the play of many or most people. Just as a hunch. Whether this matters or not I'm not sure.


I had to play a (serious league) game against a much stronger player just last week (EGF 4dan). I knew I had very little chance going in, but well tried my best, learned something both from the game and the review and case closed. Now, I would not have appreciated him claiming to be my level and destroy me "without even reading" and then produce a bleeping youtube video mocking me.

If you are willing to discuss your own mistakes as well, there is no reason whatsoever to play in permanent sandbagger mode. It would require a different persona than the "crush the noobz (for educational purposes, only ;))", though.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #30 Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:56 am 
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tapir wrote:
I had to play a (serious league) game against a much stronger player just last week (EGF 4dan). I knew I had very little chance going in, but well tried my best, learned something both from the game and the review and case closed. Now, I would not have appreciated him claiming to be my level and destroy me "without even reading" and then produce a bleeping youtube video mocking me.

If you are willing to discuss your own mistakes as well, there is no reason whatsoever to play in permanent sandbagger mode. It would require a different persona than the "crush the noobz (for educational purposes, only ;))", though.


Yeah, I'm kind of assuming any video will be of the gentler instructive kind rather than the "going into a beginner language class and mocking people's accents" approach that some seem to favour.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #31 Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:55 am 
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First of all, there seems to be a lot of people advocating for Dwyrin to tell the opponent that they are a lot stronger than their sandbag rank. This would ruin the whole point of the video! If you tell your opponent truthfully that you are a lot stronger than they are, they will not play as if they are playing a similarly-ranked player! Shame on people who lack this awareness!

Second of all, I applaud Dwyrin for his courage to continue his sandbag series rather than keeling over due to people whining on the internet. No harm is legitimately caused to anyone by Dwyrin's choice to occasionally sandbag. Go is played for fun and as long as the opponent believes he has a fighting chance, it does not take away that player's fun or enjoyment!

Lastly, I'll admit losing sucks. To spend 45 minutes or an hour fighting a game you don't have an actual chance of winning is indeed both stressful and frustrating. There's no way around this though because servers can't really bend over backwards to prevent sandbagging and AI-cheating. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #32 Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:29 am 
Gosei
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Jowels wrote:
First of all, there seems to be a lot of people advocating for Dwyrin to tell the opponent that they are a lot stronger than their sandbag rank. This would ruin the whole point of the video! If you tell your opponent truthfully that you are a lot stronger than they are, they will not play as if they are playing a similarly-ranked player! Shame on people who lack this awareness!


I assume this is some sort of irony, since most of the same commenters have the awareness, just doubt this is true. Even if it were true, it doesn't justify the deceit.

Jowels wrote:
Second of all, I applaud Dwyrin for his courage to continue his sandbag series rather than keeling over due to people whining on the internet.

I'm not telling him to stop, I'm just saying why I quit watching it. You can whine about that, I'm still quitting.

Jowels wrote:
No harm is legitimately caused to anyone by Dwyrin's choice to occasionally sandbag. Go is played for fun and as long as the opponent believes he has a fighting chance, it does not take away that player's fun or enjoyment!


There's effectively no difference in cheating or sandbagging on the opponet: they believe they have a chance and they don't. It's not the end of the world but it's unfair.

Jowels wrote:
Lastly, I'll admit losing sucks. To spend 45 minutes or an hour fighting a game you don't have an actual chance of winning is indeed both stressful and frustrating. There's no way around this though because servers can't really bend over backwards to prevent sandbagging and AI-cheating. :roll:


You seem to put individual responsibility behind policy. I like to strive for a world where people behave without the threat of punishment. And I certainly don't encourage bad behavior in absence of enforced policies.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #33 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:50 pm 
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Sandbagging for views is, in my view, reprehensible. There is no way around the lying and poor sportsmanship. When one builds a viewership on that it is bad for the game.

It is not necessary to sandbag to help others improve. It is not necessary to sandbag to improve.

The common streamers who do this do not get my attention. Why would I support someone who cheats for views. They are only strong amateurs. Instead, we can all learn from and support the real pros who are online. They have devoted their life to Go and still find a way to teach without sandbagging.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #34 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:52 pm 
Honinbo

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Is sandbagging really lying? It's even a necessity to get a rank on some servers...

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #35 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:17 am 
Gosei
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Kirby wrote:
Is sandbagging really lying? It's even a necessity to get a rank on some servers...


That's not a problem. Of course we're not talking about that. Being 6 dan on a server and deliberately creating and maintaining a 1k rank for educational/sensational purposes is.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #36 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:45 am 
Honinbo

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Knotwilg wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Is sandbagging really lying? It's even a necessity to get a rank on some servers...


That's not a problem. Of course we're not talking about that. Being 6 dan on a server and deliberately creating and maintaining a 1k rank for educational/sensational purposes is.


I agree some may have moral qualms with this - I just don't really consider the behavior to be "lying", per say, unless you've explicitly told your opponent that you're a given rank (when you're not). I bring up server ranking because it is an example that shows that simply playing a game at a given rank is not a lie.

Anyway, maybe it's not important to belabor the terminology - I just don't happen to consider sandbagging to be a lie in itself (I am making no statement about the morality of sandbagging here).

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #37 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:46 pm 
Oza

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Kirby wrote:
Is sandbagging really lying? It's even a necessity to get a rank on some servers...


If someone is deliberately maintaining a weaker rating then they are misrepresenting their strength to opponents at minimum. It's related to but different to starting a climb from the highest declarable rank on Tygem. On Tygem you *know* people in the dan ranks could be any strength because that "way too strong for 7d" that just crushed you might be a new player ranking up their first account like they have to but say 5 kyu on OGS? Nah, if you're playing at 5kyu on KGS you expect someone marked as 5kyu to be, eh, +/- 2 stones from that. Encountering an opponent who feels like a 5d ranking up from SDK would be not even close to normal. It's fairly easy on some servers to handwave away the sandbagging and extremely difficult to do it for others.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #38 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:12 am 
Honinbo

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Boidhre wrote:

If someone is deliberately maintaining a weaker rating then they are misrepresenting their strength to opponents at minimum.


The server assigns rank estimate. The player is not stating anything about their rank, and is therefore not lying. Perhaps they are aware that the result of their actions may lead some people to misunderstand their rank, but it's not a lie - again, the server is providing the rank estimate, not the player.

Perhaps opponents would be surprised to encounter a 5d player playing on a 5k account. Maybe it's unkind to those opponents. Maybe the sandbagger is doing something wrong. I agree with all of that.

But simply having a server-assigned rank is not a lie in itself, even if you have lost on purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #39 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:41 am 
Oza

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Kirby wrote:
But simply having a server-assigned rank is not a lie in itself, even if you have lost on purpose.


Yeah I just would see a distinction between someone manipulating their server assigned rank to keep it weak and someone ranking up. Is the former lying? Eh, depends how literal one wants to be but they are certainly actively maintaining a rank that is a lie which feels quite different to someone registering and playing up from a rank. Maybe that's just me though.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I quit watching sandbagger series on youtube
Post #40 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:54 am 
Honinbo

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Boidhre wrote:
Kirby wrote:
But simply having a server-assigned rank is not a lie in itself, even if you have lost on purpose.


Yeah I just would see a distinction between someone manipulating their server assigned rank to keep it weak and someone ranking up. Is the former lying? Eh, depends how literal one wants to be but they are certainly actively maintaining a rank that is a lie which feels quite different to someone registering and playing up from a rank. Maybe that's just me though.


I agree with your sentiment completely here.

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