Piracy in the Go industry.

[tapir]

I believe the role of xerox copies is underestimated. There are (that is my gut feeling) likely more sales lost to them than to digital piracy, especially given that they are around so much longer. People downloading digitalised go books may download a large number of them (as no investment of time or money at all is needed) but likely never read them, only a few of those books they would have bought.

While I obviously have no solution, I would not try to go digital but to make my books more like books. That is no DIN Ax formats that look ugly and are well suited to copying, better binding, more emphasis on cover design (it can still be simple), in short something that makes people want to own the book itself. Many go book publishers don't care about that very much, e.g. Slate & Shell is a disaster in this regard.

[RobertJasiek]

no DIN Ax formats that look ugly

I like DIN formats because, well, surely I am used to them. There is a real advantage though: the edge ratio SQRT 2 often allows a nice vertical page layout. The books are held well in one's hand(s). Other paper formats can fit these purposes, too. In Europe, DIN is the norm and therefore production costs in those formats are the smallest in relation to the (text-heavy) contents. Producing smaller formats creates at least the same cost as the next bigger DIN size.

[Dusk Eagle]

True, the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas has not yet been extended to cover the cyber-oceans of our internet era. But I think we all know that the mayhem and robbery these digital seadogs perpetrate outside the geographical borders of sovereign states are every bit as cold-blooded and lecherous as the indignities that Blackbeard and Captain Kidd inflicted on innocent seafarers in an earlier, more innocent, age.

The hyperbole here is ridiculous. Obtaining a digital copy for free versus pillage and rape and murder.

It seems to me if we have a book for sale, and it is popular enough for someone to go through the trouble to pirate it, and people take it instead of paying for it, then the null hypothesis should be a loss of sales.

This is the problem with your reasoning. You're assuming that people are pirating it "instead of" paying for it.

I figure I should reveal something about my own piracy habits. For me, I've always been more of a fan of finding music and videos on streaming sites than by downloading to my computer. I can list many franchises I became a customer of after starting off with unauthorized copies, and which I never would have bought their products at all if it weren't for those copies.

Fullmetal Alchemist - I watched the first half of this show online, and bought DVD box sets for the second half because I liked it so much. I later got my sister into this show, and she's watched the entire series on streaming websites at least 4 times. As a result of her fandom, she now owns around ten books of the manga, and my brother and I own a few of the books as well. She finished the manga online because the publisher was too slow getting the later installments published over here, but even after reading the entire thing online she bought a couple more books.

Pokemon - I watched a lot of the Advanced Generation anime on streaming sites, and because I was a fan I would occasionally buy DVDs containing a few episodes that were coming up so I could watch them in higher quality and also show my support for the franchise. I own about 8 DVDs, but I'm at my parents' house for the weekend and can't check the exact number. All this goes without mentioning how being a fan of the anime made me a virtual lock to buy Pokemon Pearl when it came out.

Radiohead - I was first introduced to this group by a high-school English teacher who played us a couple of their songs off of YouTube (this was before music companies started uploading songs to YouTube themselves, so you could call this unauthorized). I was next exposed to Radiohead because they play the ending song in the anime Ergo Proxy, another anime I streamed. Listening to Paranoid Android after every episode made me search for more stuff by them. Although I have made a commitment to myself not to buy music from any RIAA-affiliated label due to their aggressive lawsuits against piraters, when their self-released album The King of Limbs came out, I bought the digital copy the very first day.

Looking at my own life, my piracy has definitely lead me to spend more on media then I likely would have otherwise. Obviously you need some actual studies before making firm conclusions about the effects of piracy on sales, but from looking at my own life it doesn't seem like a ridiculous notion that piracy can lead to increased exposure and thus increased sales.

[kirkmc]

Dusk Eagle, every single anecdotal example you cite could be countered by the tens of thousands, nay, millions of examples of people who are simple freeloaders and download everything they can without ever caring about paying.

There are plenty of studies that correlate downloads and music purchases, for example, but none of these go beyond mere correlation (correlation is not causation, and all that).

Some anecdotal examples:

When my son went off to study web design two years ago, I bought him a copy of Adobe CS4 (student license). He was _the only student_ among the 60 in his class who had a legal copy. But they all had copies.

Among his peers, pretty much everyone downloads everything without hardly every buying anything. (Some do still go to the movies.)

But these examples are as anecdotal as yours. I don't pretend that they represent a valid sample of the world of downloaders. I do, however, posit that this behavior has become second nature among young people today.

And, by the way, I'm not saying that I don't download stuff. Interestingly, it can often be easier to download a movie than to rent it legally. With release windows, and all that, sometimes the movie you want to watch simply isn't available. I buy very few DVDs, at least of movies, because I rarely watch them more than once. (And where I live there are no DVD rental options.) Personally, I think online video rentals should cost no more than $2. That's cheap enough to offset the ease-of-access, at least for those movies that are available. As for non-availability, that's probably one thing that _increases_ piracy.

[daal]

Dusk Eagle, every single anecdotal example you cite could be countered by the tens of thousands, nay, millions of examples of people who are simple freeloaders and download everything they can without ever caring about paying.

But I think Dusk Eagle's point is that such people wouldn't have shelled out the money anyway at the time, but that their piracy exposed them to material that they might eventually purchase when they are ... more mature.

[daniel_the_smith]

I don't think anyone doubts that some pirates proceed to pay for the content, nor that some do not. The question is: what is the ratio of the two groups? And that can only be answered by data. You can't get an accurate map of a city by staying at home and sketching what you think it looks like. I would be surprised if studies on this don't exist. I'd also be surprised if you could apply them directly to go players.

My own point is that regardless of the current balance of pirates-who-pay vs. pirates-who-don't, the extremely low actual cost of duplicating information virtually guarantees that as time goes on, the business model of charging per copy will become increasingly unsustainable.

[John Fairbairn]

This isn't about this particular thread, but I sometimes get the impression that you think you don't need to defend your opinion. When discussions with you descend into disagreement, it seems that half the time you either declare your opinion self-evidently true or complain that we're engaging in tedious logic-chopping. I don't think that's particularly helpful, or particularly respectful.

If you only had this attitude towards your gallery of trolls, it might be ok. But that's not how it looks to me.

Recognising that I have a "gallery of trolls" suggests to me that you have an inkling of what I face, so I will reply.

First, why do I post? I normally attend no clubs or tournaments, and rarely play, but I love go. I therefore seek some sort of contact with other go players. L19 has been a useful outlet. I could just lurk, but getting involved in a discussion is more fun. I often come across items that I think will interest people, and think that posting something about it will promote a discussion I am especually interested in. I don't post for "glory" - I've had my name published often enough over the past 45 years to have got well and truly over that. I post because I want to hear other views. I'm always especially interested in hearing how other people think, and especially crave differences of opinion.

But when, like me, you tend to post something substantial and lace it with opinion, you often tend to get a one-to-many relationship. Lots of people can feel the need to contribute. If it was just a matter of counterarguments or new facts, that would be just what I've hoped for. But reality is that replies often focus more on point-scoring than discussion. If they also contain criticims of me or questions to me, as is often the case, there is pressure to devote a lot of time to following up - time I don't really want to spend. The reverse many-to-one relationship becomes too onerous.

To take the current example, when I throw out an opinion that "looks like the pirates have won" I don't expect or think it is fair to be accused of a "persecution mania". When I say I don't like short time limits, I don't expect or think it is fair to be accused of being anti-Korean. It is perfectly possible for the same writers simply to disagree with my opinions and put forward their own opinions. That would tend to lead to a discussion.

There are in fact extremely few discussions on L19. Apart from personal criticisms there are other elements here which already militate against them. I'm guilty of some or all them, too, but there is the constant habit of not reading carefully what other people say, which is often exacerbated by people inventing what you say and putting it in quotes. There is the constant habit of taking what other people say out of context. There is the constant habit of referring back to something someone said aeons ago without allowing people to change their minds (which is what discussions are for, surely) or have fuzzy opinions. There are problems, of course, with the disjointed format. There are also the trolls. I try to deal with them by ignoring them, but some trolls stay hidden longer than others.

Although I sometimes do defend an opinion and may wish to argue vigorously for it - that seems to be part of a proper discussion - I don't think my opinions are self-evidently true. If I ignore some point, it's probably that, as I say, when you are the "one" in a "one-to-many" relationship, it becomes wearing trying to deal with all that noise. It may also be that I don't necessarily feel the need to defend an opinion. It's only an opinion. Go is only a game.

It seems to me that at present I am being baited by trolls whilst also being attacked for not defending my opinions and being attacked for defending my opinions, and also for not providing a free consultancy service. That is so tiresome to deal with. The simplest way is to ignore it. I have therefore decided that, apart perhaps from the occasional announcement or question, I will become a lurker but will drop out permanently of L19 contributions. This is not pique or anger (at least not beyond a small percentage). It is just a hard-nosed realisation that I am not getting out of L19 what I hoped for in the way of discussion. Instead I feel the need to write boring posts like this, which really add nothing to L19, to discussion, to my pleasure, to go.

I think I can spend my time better. If I find something new I really want to share, we have New In Go (which got brushed aside when L19 looked more promising). Or I can just put it on the GoGoD CD. I might even study go a little, though I have been itching to return to two projects that relate to go but also to my first love, languages (Japanese for Go Players and Korean for Baduk Players).

No pique, no anger, but disappointment yes. Not only have the pirates won, but the trolls have won.

[daniel_the_smith]

See guys, this is why we can't have nice things.

[RobertJasiek]

the trolls have won.

The trolls (flooding for its only sake) have not even won rec.games.go. Maybe you use an entirely different definition of "troll"?

[Redundant]

It seems to me that at present I am being baited by trolls whilst also being attacked for not defending my opinions and being attacked for defending my opinions, and also for not providing a free consultancy service. That is so tiresome to deal with. The simplest way is to ignore it. I have therefore decided that, apart perhaps from the occasional announcement or question, I will become a lurker but will drop out permanently of L19 contributions. This is not pique or anger (at least not beyond a small percentage). It is just a hard-nosed realisation that I am not getting out of L19 what I hoped for in the way of discussion. Instead I feel the need to write boring posts like this, which really add nothing to L19, to discussion, to my pleasure, to go.

No pique, no anger, but disappointment yes. Not only have the pirates won, but the trolls have won.

It's sad to see you go. I enjoyed most of your posts (if not your attitudes), and you offered much great information to this forum.

[tchan001]

I'd like to thank JF for all the useful and valuable contributions he has made freely in L19. They have sparked many interesting thoughts which have added tremendously to those of us who appreciate his insights.

In my opinion, the disappearance of the voice of JF is a great loss to the community. It is rare for someone so knowledgeable to share his insights and opinions so freely for the benefit of the community.

I hope those who have caused JF to bring on his decision to become a lurker will reflect on what they have accomplished.

I will certainly miss the interesting posts he publishes here about ideas he read about in different Asian magazines and books which are not so readily accessible or understandable to most people in the forum in their raw form.

[Horibe]

You know it is time to leave when the moderators start taking sarcastic shots at you.

John, I will miss you.

[Koroviev]

If I had a pound for every time I've seen a self-appointed forum superstar get in a huff after being criticised and dramatically anounce their departure from online life, I would have enough money to buy some go books instead of pirating them all.

[tchan001]

If I had a pound for every time I've seen a self-appointed forum superstar get in a huff after being criticised and dramatically anounce their departure from online life, I would have enough money to buy some go books instead of pirating them all.

And who might the other self-appointed forum superstars you've seen get in a huff on L19?

[Koroviev]

If I had a pound for every time I've seen a self-appointed forum superstar get in a huff after being criticised and dramatically anounce their departure from online life, I would have enough money to buy some go books instead of pirating them all.

And who might the other self-appointed forum superstars you've seen get in a huff on L19?

Forums generally, every one on the internet has a thread or three like this. They're not usually so polite as L19 though.