It is currently Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:29 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #1 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:16 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 24
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
Rank: 6K EGF
KGS: 5K
Hello!

I was wondering where is go considered an sport. I mean, is like chess, considered a mind sport and not just a game.

Thanks! :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #2 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:14 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4424
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 588
The question cannot be answered easily; it always is a question of "considered by whom". Since the IGF is a member of the IMSA / SportAccord, there are always some who consider go a mind sport. OTOH, not every state's law or bureaucracy would agree. (The same problem occurs for whether go is an art.) Such questions can be relevant for taxes, state support etc.

As for Germany, I think that the German state does not consider it a sport, does not consider it gemeinnützig, does not care whether it is a mind sport and has left it ambiguous or a case by case decision for individuals whether it is an art.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #3 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:46 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 24
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
Rank: 6K EGF
KGS: 5K
I think by the state.

There are a lot of grants and money support for chess, which is considered an sport for its long history. I was wondering which countries consider it as an sport, which international organisms and so on.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #4 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:51 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4120
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 148
Was liked: 2030
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
The BBC rejected the BGA's application to join their BBC Sport Get Inspired program. Quite rightly IMO, Go isn't a sport.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #5 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:30 am 
Oza

Posts: 2182
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 659
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
From Wikipedia

Quote:
Sport (or sports) is all forms of usually competitive physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing entertainment to participants, and in some cases, spectators. Hundreds of sports exist, from those requiring only two participants, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as individuals.

Sport is generally recognised as activities which are based in physical athleticism or physical dexterity, with the largest major competitions such as the Olympic Games admitting only sports meeting this definition, and other organisations such as the Council of Europe using definitions precluding activities without a physical element from classification as sports. However, a number of competitive, but non-physical, activities claim recognition as mind sports. The International Olympic Committee (through ARISF) recognises both chess and bridge as bona fide sports, and SportAccord, the international sports federation association, recognises five non-physical sports, although limits the amount of mind games which can be admitted as sports.


From this I would take it that the majority of people would not consider mind games to be sports (I am among them) but there is clearly a minority opinion that a few games are. If chess and bridge are included I see no reason why go should not be. But for state sponsorship I would think that it would have to be familiar to the majority of the population, even if they don't play. In most countries go clearly would not qualify on that count.

Go used to receive state sponsorship in Japan during the Edo period. Is that still the case?

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #6 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:31 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7525
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 274
Was liked: 1674
GD Posts: 312
Hi lbalddy, that's a very interesting question.

At least in China and Japan, many people consider Go to be not "just a game."

Some Chinese websites, such as sina, list Go under their Sports section.

In Japan, I remember seeing at least one newspaper website list Go under Culture.

It maybe interesting to look at some of the Chinese vocabulary used for Go.
In Chinese, people usually don't use the term "game" ( 遊戲 ) for Go or chess.
Instead, the character used is qi ( 棋 ).
Similarly, the verb used when we engage in Go or chess is not "play" wan ( 玩 ), but xia ( 下 ).
I wonder if they have similar distinctions in Japanese ?

The status of Go also varies considerably in different countries.
The following is my first-hand experience. When I introduced a person as a Go pro,
here are the typical reactions in these three countries:
  • U.S. *blank stare*.
  • China. "Oh, they are pretty smart." (general feeling).
  • Japan. "Wow!" (general feeling).



Related: Why do we play games?


This post by EdLee was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, fireproof
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #7 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:53 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 24
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
Rank: 6K EGF
KGS: 5K
If chess is a sport in Spain, considered like that, why not go?

That's the question. In all europe chess is considered a sport, why not go? If we consider it an sport we can promote it like that, and reach more people, not like just another board game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #8 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:56 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7525
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 274
Was liked: 1674
GD Posts: 312
lbalddy wrote:
If chess is a sport in Spain, considered like that, why not go?
Hi lbalddy, something to do with the hundreds and thousands of years of different cultures ?

How to promote Go is another very popular discussion here.
You can find threads with lots of interesting exchanges on this topic.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #9 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:00 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 388
Location: Germany
Liked others: 156
Was liked: 33
Rank: terrible
KGS: paK0, xSaber
Tygem: paK0666
OGS: paK0
lbalddy wrote:
If chess is a sport in Spain, considered like that, why not go?

That's the question. In all europe chess is considered a sport, why not go? If we consider it an sport we can promote it like that, and reach more people, not like just another board game.


I'm not 100% sure how the process works, but I think for something to be considered a sport besides having some qualities (competetive nature,....) a sufficient push for it must be made. I'm sure if most of the european countries in question had go organizations whose member numbers could rival those of the respective soccer associations getting it approved as a sport would be pretty easy.

_________________
The key to victory - WWBD

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #10 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:12 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 152
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 22
I think go will slowly overtake chess as the paramount mental game. This isn't going to happen overnight but as go becomes more and more prevalent in the West it will earn its deserved recognition.

Is it a sport, an art, or just a board game? Probably it is all three. Board games are usually activities that you enjoy every once in awhile with friends and family for fun. For some people this is exactly what go is, an entertaining game where they understand the basic rules and strategies of the game. A sport is something we usually take more seriously, spending many hours harnessing our skills. For amateur and professional athletes these activities take a good chunk of our time up. We do these sports for exercise, fun, money, competition etc. While art is a creative expression in which we design and manipulate to create a final product. Go can be considered any one of these three categories and in the end it depends on the player playing what go means to them.

Nice video btw on why we play games.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #11 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:58 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2731
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 541
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Subotai wrote:
I think go will slowly overtake chess as the paramount mental game. This isn't going to happen overnight but as go becomes more and more prevalent in the West it will earn its deserved recognition.


It's had some thousands of years, but it's hard to say it's the paramount mental game in either China or Japan. It seems Xiangqi and Shogi are more popular.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #12 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:13 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 152
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 22
Xiang Qi and Sho Gi may be more popular to the masses, but that has always been true just as checkers and dominos are probably more popular than chess. Go is the game for intellectuals and the refined. Whether in the East or West your ask which game is more respected it is always the game of the intellectual. The noble arts of a gentleman included go not xiang qi. Benjamin Franklin wrote a treatise on the virtues of chess not checkers.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #13 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:19 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2731
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 541
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Subotai wrote:
Xiang Qi and Sho Gi may be more popular to the masses, but that has always been true just as checkers and dominos are probably more popular than chess. Go is the game for intellectuals and the refined. Whether in the East or West your ask which game is more respected it is always the game of the intellectual. The noble arts of a gentleman included go not xiang qi. Benjamin Franklin wrote a treatise on the virtues of chess not checkers.


I'm more familiar with Japan where Shogi and Go seem equally respected to me.

I'm not familiar with Xiangqi vs Go in China.

In either case, I don't see Go ever surpassing Chess in the West. It would just be nice if it was close.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #14 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:54 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 153
Was liked: 40
Rank: DDK
Universal go server handle: happysocks
Subotai wrote:
Is it a sport, an art, or just a board game? Probably it is all three. Board games are usually activities that you enjoy every once in awhile with friends and family for fun. For some people this is exactly what go is, an entertaining game where they understand the basic rules and strategies of the game. A sport is something we usually take more seriously, spending many hours harnessing our skills. For amateur and professional athletes these activities take a good chunk of our time up. We do these sports for exercise, fun, money, competition etc. While art is a creative expression in which we design and manipulate to create a final product. Go can be considered any one of these three categories and in the end it depends on the player playing what go means to them.


Agree and feel the same applies to physical sports. Also, have never really understood peoples resistance to seeing mind sport as sport. What difference does it make whether we are applying our bodies or minds to work in a chosen discipline? The opportunities for dedication, excellence, failure, inspiration are all there either way.


Attachments:
mind sport.jpg
mind sport.jpg [ 51.08 KiB | Viewed 1046 times ]

_________________
"Tsumegos are for reading power and Tesujis for knowing which moves to read"

This post by happysocks was liked by: Bantari
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #15 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:25 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1857
Liked others: 12
Was liked: 2750
Quote:
The noble arts of a gentleman included go not xiang qi.


Not really. The word usually used was simply qi, but this has often been used for xiangqi as well as go (and likewise for yi). The meaning is really something like "intellectual board game". Gentlemen scholars wrote plenty of poems and books extolling the virtues of xiangqi. The first mention of the term in Tang times is unclear, and debate continues about other references. My impression is that which game wins the argument depends on whether you are a go player or a chess player, but there is no real reason to insist on choosing one over the other. Same with sex. There is also at least one reference that these arts were appropriate to young maidens, not just to gentlemen.

Shogi likewise has always been bracketed with go, so the dichotomy presented here is rather meaningless In Japan, too.

Go does, of course, score better than the chesses in the antiquity stakes, and that gives it a certain cachet, but for gentlemen and courtiers in Japan, China and Korea it was really a case of "I like all fruit but I am partial to apples" and not "I like apples therefore pears are yucky", or vice versa.

And in passing, go is not always one of the four arts. Although it seems to have been in the first use of the list (but as qi, recall), non-go players had different lists. Seal-cutting (nothing to do with Canadians who don't have clubs handy) was one skill sometimes touted for inclusion. And for Confucian scholars there were six accomplishments, which included charioteering, archery and mathematics, with no go at all.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 2 people: Bantari, EdLee
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #16 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:47 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4120
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 148
Was liked: 2030
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
happysocks wrote:
...What difference does it make whether we are applying our bodies or minds to work in a chosen discipline? ...


The word we use to accurately and clearly describe it. I don't see why the word sport is so wonderful and all activities should aspire to be called sports*.

*Oh that money thing... But sport has bad things too like WADA.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bantari
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #17 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:07 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1607
Location: San Diego
Liked others: 620
Was liked: 482
Universal go server handle: Bantari
happysocks wrote:
Also, have never really understood peoples resistance to seeing mind sport as sport. What difference does it make whether we are applying our bodies or minds to work in a chosen discipline? The opportunities for dedication, excellence, failure, inspiration are all there either way.

Is mathematics a sport?
All the qualities you list are present, and it can be pretty competitive as well.

It depends on the definition of what is a "sport."
I we take a definition which includes anything resembling "physical activity" then neither go nor chess nor bridge are sports. But of course we can use other definitions, even make up our own one - so that we can make sure that it, for example, includes Go but not renju, or chess but not checkers, or whatever. I think it is pretty meaningless.

Like Uberdude says - I am not sure what is so desirable about being called "sport" and bunched with stuff like dressage or synchronized swimming. Sure, there is the better opportunity for any kind of official support, but...

Personally I think it better to try establishing another category ("mind competition" maybe, or however we want to call it) which includes go, chess, bridge, and all other mind games we want. And then we can lobby for it to reach similar status as "sport" wrt. any kind of state support. So it is not really about trying to plug Go into a specific category just to get some monies. I think it should be about making people and governments recognize the good value in such mental activities, just like they recognize good values in physical activities like the various sports.

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Countries where go is considered an sport
Post #18 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:08 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 323
Location: Potsdam, Germany
Liked others: 198
Was liked: 76
Rank: 14 kyu
Subotai wrote:
Xiang Qi and Sho Gi may be more popular to the masses, but that has always been true just as checkers and dominos are probably more popular than chess. Go is the game for intellectuals and the refined. Whether in the East or West your ask which game is more respected it is always the game of the intellectual. The noble arts of a gentleman included go not xiang qi. Benjamin Franklin wrote a treatise on the virtues of chess not checkers.


The philosopher Mendelssohn once said that he gave up playing chess because it was too serious to be a game, but not serious enough to be an occupation.

_________________
Poka King of the south east.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #19 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:04 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1952
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 1702
Was liked: 1074
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
EdLee wrote:

Ed, thanks for this link!

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #20 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:05 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7525
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 274
Was liked: 1674
GD Posts: 312
TheBigH wrote:
The philosopher Mendelssohn once said that he gave up playing chess because it was too serious to be a game, but not serious enough to be an occupation.
Do you mean Moses Mendelssohn.
Indeed, many people are experts at finding excuses.

Anyone knows when professional chess became viable ?
( And much later than professional Go in Japan or China ? )

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group