It is currently Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:53 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #1 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:22 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 827
Location: UK
Liked others: 568
Was liked: 84
Rank: OGS 9kyu
Universal go server handle: WindnWater, Elom
I remember Someone saying that Lee Sedol 9p would like to play in a 8-hour internatiol tournament or so.
But An Youngill said that it would be very difficult for a tournament like that to be organisd these days.

So I wonder, how many Go tournaments are in peoples mind that seem to impossible to do, but would be really nice? Weather it's because it's more convulatd than the Olleh KT Cup, (as in my case) or that it would be too hard to organise, or you could even just put idea's that you have been wondering, "why it hasn't been done before?". It doesn't matter how silly it sounds :D that's why I made this topic.

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #2 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:06 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 827
Location: UK
Liked others: 568
Was liked: 84
Rank: OGS 9kyu
Universal go server handle: WindnWater, Elom
For example, hers's an impossible silly-sounding Hayago tournament blueprint: Too hard to follow and it would be hard to gather the required participants, and other reasons...

Each reigon would send an even number of male and female players, sending in total 36 participants--

Japan: 4
Korea: 4
China: 4
Africa: 6*
S America: 6
Oceania: 4*
Europe: 6
Rest of Asia^: 6
N America: 6

*Only because Oceania consists of a very small amount of countries, and when you consider that sometimes Oceania is not even considered a seperate Continent in a geogaphical sense, 4 people means more players in ratio of total poulation than any of the other continents.

^Because it seems that the strongest players (top pros) are heavily concentrated in Korea and China.

The total player number is raised to 40 by inviting 4 "notable public figures" (in other words, famous people or VIP's XD who cares if their 30 kyu, it would still mke the tournament somewhat noticeable in the country of whosoever the famous person is from) and the 40 players are sorted into 8 groups of 5-- the grop stage would be a 5-player round-robin played in one day (time limits 10m and then 3x10s per move afterwards) with the two highest scoing players proceeding from each group.

Okay,the 16 players compte in what I call a "triple elimination" tounament-- but not a pure one though. If you manage to read this while keeping you're brain intact, you deserve an award.

A R2 R3 R4 R5

1 1 1 1 1
2
3 2
4
5 3 2
6
7 4
8
9 5 3 2
10
11 6
12
13 7 4
14
15 8
16

Numbers of players in 2nd and 3rd draw for each round--
1 2 3 4 5

+8+4+2+1
B 8 8 6*5*4 2 1
-4-4-2-1-2-1

+4+4+2+1+2+1
C 8 6^ 8 4 2 1
-4-2 -4


*two byes are given so only two are eliminated, and then in the next round, only one game is played

^same reason as above.

Part 2 coming next.

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #3 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:07 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2182
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 660
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
Why would it be so hard? It has been done many times in Japan.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #4 Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:09 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1845
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 89
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.


This post by Solomon was liked by: RBerenguel
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #5 Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:15 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2347
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2255
Was liked: 1322
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Araban wrote:
Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.

This is an interesting idea. Given the current economics of Go, presumably only players with separate sponsors willing to put up the manbang $100K could enter. Sponsorship changes from the tournament to the individual players. What structure would work best, a traditional knock-out table? In that case it's just your tough luck if you are paired against Lee Sedol in the first-round drawing. Alternatively is there some sort of ladder structure with a challenge-accept mechanism that could produce more interesting matches in early rounds? Or Ryusei-sen style win and continue leagues leading up to a final?

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


This post by ez4u was liked by: Solomon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #6 Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:29 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 852
Location: Central Coast
Liked others: 201
Was liked: 333
Rank: KGS [-]
GD Posts: 428
ez4u wrote:
Araban wrote:
Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.

This is an interesting idea. Given the current economics of Go, presumably only players with separate sponsors willing to put up the manbang $100K could enter. Sponsorship changes from the tournament to the individual players. What structure would work best, a traditional knock-out table? In that case it's just your tough luck if you are paired against Lee Sedol in the first-round drawing. Alternatively is there some sort of ladder structure with a challenge-accept mechanism that could produce more interesting matches in early rounds? Or Ryusei-sen style win and continue leagues leading up to a final?


What I would love to see is a Bangneki/Hahn styled city league. 7 player roster for 5 boards. Games are played on consecutive days, and the player on the roster who plays on a given day need not be announced until 5 minutes before the game. A player may not play in more than one game in a series. Players may be substituted mid game, but once they leave they are done (for the series).


Watching how board 3 changes their style based on board 1's result could be fascinating. Would it be worth it to have an endgame specialist if the series comes down to a close game? Perhaps a tsumego expert for once you hit a tricky situation. Maybe a player who excels in byo-yomi?

It could give us a chance to see pros who might have niche skills that can't quite put it all together to get a title.


This post by Mef was liked by: Solomon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #7 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:16 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 827
Location: UK
Liked others: 568
Was liked: 84
Rank: OGS 9kyu
Universal go server handle: WindnWater, Elom
DrStraw wrote:
Why would it be so hard? It has been done many times in Japan.


Really? Well, as far as I know, the SAWMG (in china) once used a double elimination system in the , but there where understandably two separate draws (male&female). I don't know of any international pro/ama tournament in Japan.

This would be a triple-elimination, but the reasons why I thought it might be difficult to organise is because was not sure that there would be enough prize money for any pros to be interested, but thinking about it again, pros could obviously participate in a more good-will fashion.

I think that it's just that I believe it's an obvious way to improve Baduk wordlwide, and I can't see why it hasn't been done before-- currently, there is no tournament where the top players from Africa, N&S America, Oceania and Europe to play against the top female players, for example. I'm not confident that the top female players could sustain an extremly high winning percentage against top American or European players.

I forgot to mention that at least one player from each region should be under 20.

What you'd have combined into one is basically (put in order of average strength of the top 10 players of each region)--

Top Chinese players (maybe)
Top Korean Players (maybe)
Top Japanese players (maybe)
Top Youth Chinese players (maybe)
Top Youth Korean Players (maybe)
Top Youth Japanese players (maybe)
Top Female Chinese players (maybe)
Top Female Korean Players (maybe)
Top Asian players (excluding CJK)
Top Youth Asian Players (excluding CJK)
Top Female Japanese players (maybe)
Top N American players
Top Female Asian Players (excluding CJK)
Top European players
Top S American players
Top Oceania Players
Top African Players
Top Female N American players
Top Female European Players
Top Female S American players
Top Female African players

I don't know how to gather all of the participants XD

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #8 Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:58 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 80
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 2
OGS: Elom hmW K
Universal go server handle: Elom, Windnwater
I finally understand what bangeki is more precisely And by strange coincidence, I just found out that it wasn't just the reduction of pre-placement even game go for free ppecement even game go, but the rejection of gambling go that Cho Namcheol used to start the Korean Baduk Association proper so my instincts at the time were correct.

Given that it was thanks to Japan mainly that the go scene in the North Atlantics (my preferred term over 'the west'), perhaps the Nihon Kiin of the adoptive mother felt hard-done by the EGF signing a 10-year contract with CEGO. In fact initially I was also a little skeptica: if European players are half a stone behind US players and even Japanese 1 Dan's, How could they even be thinking about making a pro scene. However me and the Nihon Kiin's was probably partly because they hadn't read all of what Martin Stiasny had to say. When I read that he didn't consider them quite pros on equal status to Asian pros but rather semi pro, his humble attitude changed my mind.

Given that Korea had similar treatment and now has female professionals that can win big 7 titled in Japan, perhaps one shouldn't have 100% faith in the Nihon Kiin's opinion. The irony is that the similarities between Korea and Japan they have in common but not with makes the differences between them more annoying to each other. (This happens between people to, where there are particular aspects in which more similar they are in that, the more annoying they might find other particular differences, and this can be ascertained quite mathematically even using genetic go (or chess/shogi/xiangqi) style as a testing tool. In this case both Korea and Japan sense in each other that they both value refined order rather than order by even practical mean as in China. So any perceived differences in what they consider refined order would cause more angst than with China). The second irony is that the Japanese organisations are still the authority on sustainability in terms of sponsorship and benefits to pros, for example, and to me in both go and go organisation sustainability is more important than anything else combined. I'm one of the violet coloured onions by preferece and not an all-to canny one at that.


So perhaps the Nihon Kiin should view things this way. Perhaps the Atlantic pro organisations would turn out not as a (certainly unintentiomal and perhaps only perceived) rejection of the Nihon Kiin or their kishido to as small degree, which is perhaps how the Nihon Kiin feels somewhat (although not so much in the case of the American pros--there's no ther major foreign element their than the KBA that started it, to whom the Nihon Kiin agrees with more in terms of how to divide pros from amateurs, which seem quite weak in China), but as an appraisal of Japanese go down the line. Just as with the origins of weiqi China may be the mother of western go with Korea as the fitness coach. But just as for go to really reach it's full potential it needed the adoptive mother, so too would European go probably never reach it's full potential at least in terms of sustainability without Japanese involvement. So it seems the Kansai Kiins positive response was the best possible play.

For the EGF pros At least in my opinion they have taken John Fairbairn's and Catalin Taranu's advice humbly to heart, surpassing my expectations in multiple regards. I could only maybe say that while the EGF might be trying to give it's pro organisation an identity I still think it's better on balance as a rule to include Europeans who professionals in the EGF pro tournaments, and I think the same for the AGA. Sending goodwill to the Nihon Kiin in my opinion is more important at this point. In that spirit it also seem that the AGA and EGF should always aim for maximum cooperation between their professional organizations which so the Transatlantic pro League seems a brilliant development that couldn't be more wise. Working together would help cover for each others weakness, a well thing to do for fledgling pro associations. Stiasny said he wanted to make the EGF pro organisation strong and this the the best way to do it on two fronts, 1) being the one mentioned earlier. For that matter I think half the pro tournaments EGF and AGA pros play in should be dual Atlantic tournaments, whatever the format.

I don't what quite came over me as I don't consider myself qualified to have and share my opiniom on thi but I guess my idea to finally have a two-day championship match tournament for the top Chinese and Korean professionals, it's even harder than before now in the age of AI but I think the International tournament scene. Sustainability should always be top priority before all short term goals, period, in my näive opinion I've always had when it comes to the go environment. I don't see how the principles outside the go board would differ from those inside it. The world is just a very big go board anyway.



If China is Weiqi's mother and Japan is Igo's adoptive mother, then Korea is definitely Baduk's strict personal trainer and teacher, the rest of Asia is her classmates and Europe and America are her geeky cousin in law sisters.

_________________
Practical honeytarian

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #9 Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 10:51 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 80
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 2
OGS: Elom hmW K
Universal go server handle: Elom, Windnwater
One way to make a two day final tournament easier to hold would be to hold it once every two years, the main tournament and final always held in an odd year to avoid the summer and winter Olympics. However each tournament would take four years to complete. In other words the Japanese system would work well internationally.

I honestly think that if the international pro scene had fewer games between top pros at longer time limits (and the opposite being the case for non-top pros) Lee Sedol would have been slightly less likely to retire. Regardless of what you might think of his philosophy, I still think it a sign that things should change in that direction and quickly. Right now international go tournament finals are often bests of three of five. While thankfully not at chess's necessary extremes, I still think that in almost all cases a single two-day game would have been and would be far better. And before one says that it might not be in the sponsors interest, an international two-day game once the pandemic is over one that is first, is almost a garuanteed way to generate huge amounts of interest double worth what any extra difficulties there may be in setting it up (if it's only one game, it shouldn't be too much harder r than arranging dates for five different games that take a whole day.

There seems to be more and more evidence that Korea needs Japan's help (again) and Japan Korea's. Korea needs help with Mickey Mouse games and Donald Duck prize money. Japan could find out fully why Korea's female professionals can take big seven titles. The onion cutting goes both ways (at least to that end the EGF is justified in signing with China), and apparently cutting onions is the secret to becoming a go prodigy, especially after one loses a game.

_________________
Practical honeytarian

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #10 Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 11:50 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 80
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 2
OGS: Elom hmW K
Universal go server handle: Elom, Windnwater
In international tournaments, it makes sense for each place in a tournament should have one small preliminary, with all the preliminaries held over the course of a year. In addition, half of those preliminaries should be held outside the host country, to conserve as much money as possible within the go pro organisations which seems crucial by most obviously not having it go to travel costs to hundreds of weaker professionals who can't afford it in the first place. If only the few top pros who can afford it travel it would conserve a lot of money within the pro go guilds. Thirdly, instead of female professionals having a 'female only' handicap, they can instead have a '1 Mamu' handicap were they can enter into up to three preliminary brackets. This would work if instead of being payed per game, pros are paid a constant amount multiplied by the highest round they reach (separate from prize money, which increases per highest main round played).


For example, if the main rounds of a tournament sponsored by a Chinese company has 32 places there will be 32 desperate small preliminaries, 16 of them will be held in the Chinese and Taiwanese Weiqi Associations, at different dates, and 8 each will be held in Korea and Japan. Since the top Chinese professionals can go abroad to play in Korea and Japan this would make it fairer for the rest of the strong Chinese pros who don't get an international look in as often as they deserve. Female professionals can enter into up to three preliminary places. Atlantic pros might find easier to schedule in international tournaments.

If a special preliminary is used, it doesn't make sense to force pros to have to choose between the main preliminary and possibly up to two possible special preliminary. Having one combined special preliminary held after the main preliminary makes the most sense and is simply the fairest way and would do better at promoting your company. With regards to western pros, one combined special preliminary of seniors, youth, females and western pros seems far more logical in terms of promoting go than putting them in the main rounds, which make little sense at all. For all the joked about world championship, it seems Senko has seen sense more than others. There special tournament likely did more to promote go than any individual time a foreign player) was invited to play in the main rounds (and if a foreign player is invited, it should without exception be to the preliminaries like the Kansai Kiin did. If the International Olympic committee is going to go seriously this last element seems crucial to me. I can't overstate it enough.

_________________
Practical honeytarian

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #11 Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 11:18 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 80
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 2
OGS: Elom hmW K
Universal go server handle: Elom, Windnwater
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f ... Tournament

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f ... rnationals

Collecting my thoughts on making a pro tournament.

One aim I have is to one day hold but each pro can enter three preliminaries and female pros can enter nine.

Before the preliminary, there will be a preliminary preliminary of top world amateurs, and the insei in Korea, Japan, China, and Europe & America.

Before the preliminary preliminary, there'd be a preliminary preliminary preliminary, open to all amateurs.

_________________
Practical honeytarian

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:03 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 80
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 2
OGS: Elom hmW K
Universal go server handle: Elom, Windnwater
Eight pros of any association originally from Europe-Amerecas and eight female pros from Taiwan and Japan. As a minor online league.

A Swiss league with SODOS with 2*log2(16) = eight matches, and since it would be a league it would be possible to have a Komi of 7, if SODOS is used, and since it's possible to have a komi of 7 it's possible to have area scoring.

This would be a great test for a more major online league. 16 pros from Korea and China (with four female professionals) and 12 from Japan and Taiwan and the top four from the minor league, so 2*log2(32) = ten matches. Of course it would be easy if I could find a sponsor whose likely to get an advertising return on investment on a set of online go league, but I can't think of what type of business would do so.

1st €32,000, 2nd €8,000, 3rd&4th €2,000, 5th to 8th €500. = A total pool of €64,000 for the major online tournament. Even if the minor online tournament has half the prizes that still totals €96,000 euros of required return.

One day the minor league may even be hosted on OGS. I remember someone commenting on the YouTube announcement of the OGS game challenge that perhaps OGS as the East Asian, servers, and someone responding to that with that with incredulity since it seemed to imply that OGS would become as popular for those living in East Asia to use. If that indeed was what was meant, well I don't see why that was necessary. But even if unnecessary I see no reason to be pessimistic if that is what one wants to achieve.

_________________
Practical honeytarian

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:53 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 80
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 2
OGS: Elom hmW K
Universal go server handle: Elom, Windnwater
14 7 near (women) pros per team Korean peninsula, China, Japan& Taiwan+ (w&c)

Two games per round, one round per week.
-----
32, Americas-Europe, 20 Japan&Taiwan+ title-holders of open and near pro tournaments, 5 near international title holders, the world's 7 best amatuears. Chinese rules with a Kom of 7 exactly. Swiss 2log2(64)=12 rounds (online?)
-----
True international tournament
Pros sign up and preliminaries are held at go associations with the number of each allocated according to the number of registered. They are held consecutively. Any pro can play in any preliminary any number of times, however priority for each preliminary is first those who have played in the fewest so far, then nears(women). Amateurs can qualify for the pro preliminary by doing well enough in the amateur on, which could be run similarly to the pro one.

_________________
Practical honeytarian

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #14 Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:03 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 80
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 2
OGS: Elom hmW K
Universal go server handle: Elom, Windnwater
86 Japanese&Taiwanese+Hongkongese w43 Nears, 43 top Nears, 43 non KJthC participants, At a game a fortnight of 30min+5sec increment lentear rules hayago with pairings of the same sex or nationality avoided (Specific Swiss). 1st €32,000 2nd €8,000 3rd&4th €2,000 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, €500 9th-16th €125 using direct match and then sum of defeated opponents scores to determine places.

_________________
Practical honeytarian

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group