It is currently Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:36 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #41 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:02 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
Official announcement from DeepMind
https://twitter.com/demishassabis/statu ... 3282954240


This post by pookpooi was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #42 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:28 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2146
Location: Germany
Liked others: 7852
Was liked: 893
Rank: OGS SDK
Universal go server handle: trohde
pookpooi wrote:


Thank you!

Embedding the image from his tweet:

Image

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #43 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:02 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 27
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 2
Rank: Oro 5 dan
Here are some videos in which Master(P) won against Park Jeonghwan, Ke Jie, Iyama Yuta and Shin Jinseo:









This post by hokusai was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #44 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:39 pm 
Beginner
User avatar

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 7
dankenzon wrote:
Look what Ali Jabarin (1p, Europe) just reported a few minutes ago in his facebook

"6 pm pairing draw for Limin cup tomorrow morning, 5:58 I'm glued to Tygem watching some mysterious account beat Park Junghwan (again) after just beating Ke Jie twice in a row, oops late for the ceremony, meet ke jie who is also late from watching the game on the way to the ceremony and he is a bit shocked.. just repeating "it's too strong".
Dunno whether it's alphago or not but it's definitely some strong computer with 20-0(and counting) score against top pros, go check out Master(P) on Tygem."

pookpooi wrote:

Might be a good time to update the thread title to something more informative? So people don't continue to accidentally skip the thread. Maybe something like: "AlphaGo/Master(P) undefeated in 60 online blitz games vs top pros".

OP or a moderator, interested in changing the thread title?


This post by mistakenot was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #45 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:26 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
My impression is that how AlphaGo is able to play in Japanese rule with 6.5 komi

Are they force AlphaGo? And degrading performance is acceptable since it's already way ahead of top pro.
Or they train with new data to play specifically with Japanese rule.
Or they do something, like unsupervised training, self-train from scratch, that can be flexible in rule and komi?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #46 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:40 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 63
Location: Paris
Liked others: 50
Was liked: 31
KGS: clemi
Regarding Game 55 - Chen Yaoye, there's a funny anecdote to it.
It was in fact Chen Yaoye and Meng Tailing playing both against Master (although the decision was always Chen's to make) during a live session at Weiqi TV.

Here's the first part where Chen Yaoye and Meng Tailing talk about their respective games and their feelings when waiting for Nie Weiping's game to finish :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFZLxj_u70

And here's the backstage as the match was going on :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BknZMjTpqmY

During the game, around minute 8, there is a funny part that translates like this after Master plays the keima in response to the pincer :

Meng Tailing : and what about the kosumi ? is it playable (shi bu shi qi = (literally) is it go) ?
Chen Yaoye : (muttering) no, that's not playable
Meng Tailing : (after Chen Yaoye protects the corner) and now, if white presses you down, do you play it ?
Chen Yaoye : i don't know

and later in the game (forgot where) :
Meng Tailing : (again) why not play this move ?
Chen Yaoye : no
Meng Tailing : what's your refutation ? how does white respond ?
Chen Yaoye : i don't know... doesn't feel like the right move...
Meng Tailing : (laughing) oh sh** !

:lol:


This post by clemi was liked by: joellercoaster
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #47 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:38 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2146
Location: Germany
Liked others: 7852
Was liked: 893
Rank: OGS SDK
Universal go server handle: trohde
German IT news site “Golem” links to this thread in L19 in an article about AlphaGo :-)

http://www.golem.de/news/deep-mind-alph ... 25415.html

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #48 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:26 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2182
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 659
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
Bonobo wrote:
German IT news site “Golem” links to this thread in L19 in an article about AlphaGo :-)

http://www.golem.de/news/deep-mind-alph ... 25415.html


So if you linked back to it then we have a circular link. Will the internet crash? :lol:

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).


This post by DrStraw was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #49 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:12 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 286
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 60
Rank: KGS 2d
Meng Tailing reviewed his first game against Master:



Expect him to review the rest in future episodes, although he did say he performed the best in this first game and attributed part of that to not knowing it's a computer AI yet. The exchange in the upper-right was a highlight, where he believed he got much closer after falling behind in the first 50 moves. Seeing what happened at the 33:19 mark was pretty crazy too.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #50 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:15 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 709
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 92
Rank: German 1 Kyu
According to CrazyStone's analysis, this game was one of a very few "untypical" ones of the series, as it was "undecided" until late into the game (approx. move 180).

Usually, the "point of no return" is much earlier in the games (please refer to viewtopic.php?p=215477#p215477 for diagrams).


Attachments:
CSDL-AnalysisGame 9.jpg
CSDL-AnalysisGame 9.jpg [ 164.53 KiB | Viewed 3623 times ]

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #51 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:52 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 709
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 92
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Please find attached CS's result of its analysis with "depth=high".


Attachments:
CSDL-AnalysisGame9_high.jpg
CSDL-AnalysisGame9_high.jpg [ 153.48 KiB | Viewed 3643 times ]
Game9_High_RecordPrint.pdf [32.82 KiB]
Downloaded 52 times

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #52 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:44 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 40
Liked others: 6
Was liked: 4
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Cassandra wrote:
According to CrazyStone's analysis, this game was one of a very few "untypical" ones of the series, as it was "undecided" until late into the game (approx. move 180).

Usually, the "point of no return" is much earlier in the games (please refer to viewtopic.php?p=215477#p215477 for diagrams).


Which game are you referring to?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #53 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:47 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 709
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 92
Rank: German 1 Kyu
"This" game, which is the basis for the diagrams above, is game #9.

Please find attached a diagram that shows the averages of "P (B wins)" for AlphaGo as Black and as White.

EDIT: Adjusted the diagram following ez4u's suggestion below.

"1-White" is the mirrored curve for "AlphaGo as White". It is above "AlphaGo as Black", which can be interpreted that AlphaGo plays better with White than with Black (this was also said at the Lee-Sedol-time).


Attachments:
Average.jpg
Average.jpg [ 162.81 KiB | Viewed 3200 times ]

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #54 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:26 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2146
Location: Germany
Liked others: 7852
Was liked: 893
Rank: OGS SDK
Universal go server handle: trohde
Yet another IT Web site links to this thread—this time it’s Ars Technica!

Sebastian Anthony on Ars Technica wrote:
[..] Over the last week, a number of forum threads have popped up to discuss this mystery debutante who has been thrashing the world's best players. [..]

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #55 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:14 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2131
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 1961
Was liked: 1206
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Cassandra wrote:
"This" game, which is the basis for the diagrams above, is game #9.

Please find attached a diagram that shows the averages of "P (B wins)" for AlphaGo as Black and as White.

"1-Black" is the mirrored curve for "AlphaGo as Black". It is above "AlphaGo as White", which can be interpreted that AlphaGo plays better with White than with Black (this was also said at the Lee-Sedol-time).

I think you should invert White rather than Black to make your comparison. You would then have lines for the probability AG wins as Black versus the probability AG wins as White.

In any case, we see that the winning probability is higher playing White from the very beginning. The immediate interpretation would seem to be that komi is too large and gives White an advantage. This is consistent with many players' opinion based on human vs human play. The lines seem very consistent over the first 150+ plays. If AG were better playing White, the gap between the lines should diverge move by move. This does not seem to happen to any significant extent.

How should we interpret the changes that occur around move 165? Is it AG changing its evaluation process as the winning probability grows too large? Is it desperation appearing in the opponents' play?

Anyway, very interesting information. Well done! :tmbup:

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #56 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:34 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 709
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 92
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Please find below the results of CS's analysis (depth="high") for some of the "longer" games.
Scaling for both axis is identical in all the diagrams.

I am not strong enough to correlate this "bot view" with the judgement of a strong human player.

However, one idea might be that the diffences in the graphs are affected by the number of territories during the games ?

Please note that the "score" in game #9 did never exceed 10 points, which seems to be quite unique here (#36 was in this range for most of the game, especially in the phase before the "point of no return").
On the other hand, Gu Li's large moyo strategy in game #60 was not "praised" by CS.


Attachments:
CSAnalysisGame36.jpg
CSAnalysisGame36.jpg [ 135.58 KiB | Viewed 3187 times ]
CSAnalysisGame18.jpg
CSAnalysisGame18.jpg [ 137.79 KiB | Viewed 3189 times ]
CSAnalysisGame09.jpg
CSAnalysisGame09.jpg [ 150.08 KiB | Viewed 3189 times ]

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #57 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:35 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 709
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 92
Rank: German 1 Kyu
...


Attachments:
CSAnalysisGame60.jpg
CSAnalysisGame60.jpg [ 141.4 KiB | Viewed 3187 times ]
CSAnalysisGame48.jpg
CSAnalysisGame48.jpg [ 150.18 KiB | Viewed 3187 times ]

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #58 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:43 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 709
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 92
Rank: German 1 Kyu
For those who are interested in, please find attached the exports of CS's analysis of the five games mentioned above.


Attachments:
Master.zip [155.62 KiB]
Downloaded 68 times

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #59 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:04 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 199
Liked others: 6
Was liked: 55
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
ez4u wrote:
In any case, we see that the winning probability is higher playing White from the very beginning. The immediate interpretation would seem to be that komi is too large and gives White an advantage. This is consistent with many players' opinion based on human vs human play. The lines seem very consistent over the first 150+ plays. If AG were better playing White, the gap between the lines should diverge move by move. This does not seem to happen to any significant extent.


The only thing we can conclude is that Crazy Stone prefers white. We know nothing about AlphaGo's perceived winning probability.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #60 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:37 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 709
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 92
Rank: German 1 Kyu
uPWarrior wrote:
The only thing we can conclude is that Crazy Stone prefers white.

Yes, indeed, it seems that there is an offset. I did not consider this.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group