It is currently Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:05 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:45 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 101
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 25
In the US, most people seem to use Japanese terms when talking about Go (e.i kakari, tsumego, atari). I'm wondering if this may have a negative effect on the popularity of Go (even just a little bit).

Wouldn't this have an effect of making Go seem even more foreign to potential players? I feel like Go is embraced in China/Korea/Japan due to the cultural closeness they feel to it, but for obvious reasons, western people would not share the same affinity.

Perhaps the best way to spread Go is to disconnect the cultural aspect of the game and no longer describe it as an "asian board game". Chess is certainly not talked about as an "indian board game" so perhaps there is something to this? What do you think?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:06 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8877
Liked others: 2651
Was liked: 3016
negapesuo wrote:
In the US, most people seem to use Japanese terms when talking about Go (e.i kakari, tsumego, atari). I'm wondering if this may have a negative effect on the popularity of Go (even just a little bit).

Wouldn't this have an effect of making Go seem even more foreign to potential players? I feel like Go is embraced in China/Korea/Japan due to the cultural closeness they feel to it, but for obvious reasons, western people would not share the same affinity.

Perhaps the best way to spread Go is to disconnect the cultural aspect of the game and no longer describe it as an "asian board game". Chess is certainly not talked about as an "indian board game" so perhaps there is something to this? What do you think?


Check!

Mate!

Zugzwang!

Zwischenzug!

J'adoube!

En prise!

En passant!

;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, seberle
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:12 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 101
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 25
Bill Spight wrote:
negapesuo wrote:
In the US, most people seem to use Japanese terms when talking about Go (e.i kakari, tsumego, atari). I'm wondering if this may have a negative effect on the popularity of Go (even just a little bit).

Wouldn't this have an effect of making Go seem even more foreign to potential players? I feel like Go is embraced in China/Korea/Japan due to the cultural closeness they feel to it, but for obvious reasons, western people would not share the same affinity.

Perhaps the best way to spread Go is to disconnect the cultural aspect of the game and no longer describe it as an "asian board game". Chess is certainly not talked about as an "indian board game" so perhaps there is something to this? What do you think?


Check!

Mate!

Zugzwang!

Zwischenzug!

J'adoube!

En passant!

;)


Well, maybe not necessarily ENGLISH, but all those are basically western, phonetically or otherwise. Point being cultural aspect should be reduced to a minimum, definitely more so than now, in order to not burden potential players.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:19 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 34
Liked others: 26
Was liked: 6
Rank: ddk
What might burden some potential players, intrigues others.
This world is a big and beautiful place! It contains hundreds, if not thousands of different cultures, all connected or intertwined with at least their neighbours, constantly interchanging ideas, concepts, art …. Why should we want to minimize that?

If you are a native speaker of english, half the time you are using words that came from french or latin. Your morning coffee is arabic, your chocolate is nahuatl and your potatoes are taino.

To me loanwords are an enrichment for languages, they can be used to express nuances of meanings or concepts formerly not available.

edit: spelling


Last edited by Hrabanus on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Hrabanus was liked by 3 people: Bonobo, seberle, wolfking
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:53 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1989
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 198
Was liked: 1069
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
negapesuo wrote:
Well, maybe not necessarily ENGLISH, but all those are basically western, phonetically or otherwise.


A quick search on the etymology of checkmate gives:

Wikipedia (paraphrased) wrote:
The term checkmate is, according to the Barnhart Etymological Dictionary, an alteration of the Farsi phrase "shāh māt" (شاه مات) which means, literally, "the King is helpless". Others maintain that it means "the King is dead", as chess reached Europe via the Islamic world, and Arabic māta (مَاتَ) means "died" or "is dead".


But to address your actual point, I think the Japanese terminology actually attracts people more than it repels them. Of course you should not inundate a newcomer with obscure Japanese terms, but IMX new players actively choose to use relatively useless terms (e.g. moku instead of point, or kifu instead of game record). To many people, it gives the game a bit of an air of oriental wisdom, I think.


This post by HermanHiddema was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #6 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:04 am 
Judan

Posts: 6114
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 350
Was liked: 3293
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
If you are looking for an English word for ko, may I suggest "egmump", a word I have been promoting on and off for some years without much success.

But I basically agree with Herman, the Japanese terms might put off some but attract others. Which is more I don't know. I avoid using too many with beginners (just "atari" and "ko" later when that comes up) and tend to only use the Japanese ones where there isn't a good concise English alternative (so I say aji, tenuki, sente, gote, sometimes shimari or enclosure, semeai or capturing race, but approach not kakari and never moku), so only a dozen or two (I'm sure there are past posts with lists). I am perfectly happy saying tenukid as a verb (though still not sure how to spell it), so I'd actually say that's now an English loanword seeing as it is an inflected verb.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #7 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:17 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 769
Liked others: 133
Was liked: 153
European Go would benefit from developing vocabulary in local languages, however, English is the native language of a surprisingly small percentage of "EU citizens" and even smaller percentage of European Go players. In most of Europe English terms are no advantage and more of a communication problem with people who learned from the internet and who are stuck w/ English terms. If you want to reach children and pensioners (the two demographics I eye for the spread of Go) using a foreign language is not a good idea.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... pe_map.png

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #8 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:54 am 
Oza

Posts: 2374
Liked others: 15
Was liked: 3441
The balance between repelling and attracting changes with time. When I first learned go, memories of Japanese war atrocities were still raw and taking an interest in Japanese things was not to be taken on lightly. In recent times, the rise of Japanese manga made go attractive and led to Hikaru-isms such as kifu and moku.

The rise of China may well impact on the popularity of go in the west (I think Korea has finished its brief day in the sun) but all those q x zh and ü sounds, not to mention tones and excessive homophones, will probably militate against import of Chinese words. The simple pronunciation of Japanese will remains a factor.

The idea of loan words is nothing to worry about. We've had a recent one from Japanese in the form of tsunami, and others are coming in through the food chain - I saw 'surimi' as part of English packaging in the supermarket yesterday.

The problem with loan words in go is not really anything to do with marketing or purity. It's the practical problem of people using foreign terms without really understanding them in a game where having to teach other westerners is a big part of the whole deal - a pedagogic problem that doesn't really apply to wasabi, kimchi or wonton. Using food as the peg, look at the confusion over aji. But that's the not the most egregious example. Yose, atsumi and moyo are still beyond even most dan players.

We do not need to bring to bear on these another now well entrenched "loan" word - expelliamus. But we do need a good bit of explaniamus and perhaps a lot more audiamus.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 3 people: Bonobo, gowan, HKA
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #9 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:04 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 419
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Bill Spight wrote:
Check!
Mate!
Zugzwang!
Zwischenzug!
J'adoube!
En prise!
En passant!

;)
For Seki I would add "balance of terror" :mrgreen:


This post by schawipp was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #10 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:45 am 
Oza

Posts: 2182
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 659
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
This topic comes up every so often, usually started by a relative beginner. About the only thing common to all the threads is that there is no consensus. It seems most people come down on one side or the other of the discussion and don't change their opinion. I come down very strongly in favor of Japanese words, for reason I have explained elsewhere and will not repeat here, but that does no mean I am right. I cannot be right because there is no right answer.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).


This post by DrStraw was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #11 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:49 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 34
Liked others: 26
Was liked: 6
Rank: ddk
I hope my first post doesn’t come across to harsh or brusque. I find it hard to communicate all nuances properly using just written words. It was by no means meant personally. :)
Your question touched two topics i’m very passionate about: diversity and languages (including dialects).
And i wrote during my first coffee, so i was rather, uh … passionate about it. :) (btw: a very fine brew from Jinotega, Nicaragua)

I too think that the overuse of japanese (korean, chinese) terms can put interested people off and i noticed that sometimes terms are used without enough attention to their original nuances and connotations or even their meanings. (Not that i’m very knowledgeable on that, i just like to look stuff up.)
So i advocate the considered and 'proper' use, too.

But on the other hand the change of meaning and/or nuances when a word migrates into another language shows a different understanding of the concept behind it, so this could be very appropriate (linguistically speaking). :scratch:

John Fairbairn wrote:
but all those q x zh and ü sounds, not to mention tones and excessive homophones, will probably militate against import of Chinese words.

I don’t know enough about the chinese languages to have a opinion on that, but a few points to consider:

A lot of people who learn german have problems pronouncing ü,ö,ä.

When i lived in Spain, i noticed that many middle and north europeans were unable to pronounce two of the r-sounds.

There are even more different r-sounds in portugese.

Most of my fellow germans have a very hard time to pronounce the nasal sounds in french. (Exception: at least one german dialect has them as well)

Many germans have real trouble with the 'th' in english, it’s often pronounced as a very wet 's'. (There are rumours that some english teachers bring umbrellas to class for the first couple of years ;))

I still have trouble vith the 'w'. It’s just not natural. ;)

The difference in english between the spelling and the pronounciation is said to be the largest among the germanic languages. I can still hear my schoolmates cursing.



Despite all that people manage to deal with the other languages. It’s all about motivation, often migration, jobs, tv etc.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #12 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:06 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8877
Liked others: 2651
Was liked: 3016
John Fairbairn wrote:
The problem with loan words in go is not really anything to do with marketing or purity. It's the practical problem of people using foreign terms without really understanding them in a game where having to teach other westerners is a big part of the whole deal - a pedagogic problem that doesn't really apply to wasabi, kimchi or wonton. Using food as the peg, look at the confusion over aji. But that's the not the most egregious example. Yose, atsumi and moyo are still beyond even most dan players.


As far as atsumi is concerned, thickness is hardly an improvement. ;)

Quote:
We do not need to bring to bear on these another now well entrenched "loan" word - expelliamus. But we do need a good bit of explaniamus and perhaps a lot more audiamus.


Gaudeamus igitur!

And a Happy Mashie Niblick to you all. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #13 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:29 am 
Beginner

Posts: 19
Location: Niger, West Africa
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 4
Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Seberle 8k
DGS: Seberle 7k
OGS: Seberle
Online playing schedule: KGS or OGS around 04:00-06:00 UTC most days
I agree with what others are saying: Japanese terms give the game a certain appealing cultural flavor for some but might turn off others. I myself find a certain number of cultural words appealing, though I have to admit that in some older books the number of terms does seem overwhelming. However I've noticed a trend to replace some Japanese terms by English equivalents: "ladder" replaces "shicho", "extension" replaces "nobi", "connect-and-die" replaces "oiotoshi", and so on, so the number of Japanese terms is slowly decreasing.

Actually, for some of us in the EU, Japanese terms are a boon. I play in English and in French and it's nice to have the same terms in both languages. Japanese terms give us a lingua franca across different European languages. The problem is when I sit down with my French-speaking Korean friend who knows the terms only in Korean!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #14 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:36 am 
Oza

Posts: 2374
Liked others: 15
Was liked: 3441
Quote:
Many germans have real trouble with the 'th' in english, it’s often pronounced as a very wet 's'. (There are rumours that some english teachers bring umbrellas to class for the first couple of years ;))


Many British people don't use th and in Ireland it's often pronounced t, even among well educated people. In parts of Scotland it is t or d and in Cockney London it is usually f - and very young children use s. I expect there will be variations in the USA, too. Would be interested to hear about them...

Quote:
I still have trouble vith the 'w'. It’s just not natural. ;)


In Scotland and the north initial wh is a distinctive hw, and in Fife it is f (as in a well known poem/song: Fit [What] was on yer road*). Conversely, in places like London you will hear v as w as that is normal among Indian families.

This sort of thing is common in every language, though perhaps features more in languages such as English and Spanish that spread around the globe or where dialects were prominent because of geographical or political reasons (e.g. Japanese and German and Chinese). The ease with which we humans cope with this is one reason I tend to be scornful of people who argue about problems of rule differences. We can also cope with variant go words just as easily, but as I said before it helps with teaching if we can all sing from the same hymn sheet. Or is that preaching to the choir? Anyay, let's get our ducks in a row and do some blue skies thinking in real time! Funny how language can also be utterly meaningless at times and yet we even cope with that. Eat your heart out, AlphaGo.**



*
"Oh tell me fit was on yer road, ye roarin Norland wind?
As ye come blawin frae the land that's never frae ma mind.
Ma feet they traivel England but I'm deein for the North."
"Ma man, I saw the siller tides rin up the Firth o Forth."
 
"Aye wind, I ken them weel eneuch an fine they fa and rise,
And fain I'd feel the creepin mist on yonder shore that lies.
But tell me as ye pass them by, fit saw ye on the way?"
"Ma man, I rocked the rovin gulls that sail abin the Tay."
 
"Bit saw ye naethin leein wind afore ye come tae Fife?
For there's muckle lyin 'yont the Tay that's mair tae me nor life."
"Ma man, I swept the Angus braes that ye hivna trod for years."
"Oh wind, forgie a hameless loon that canna see for tears."
 
"And far abin the Angus straths I saw the wild geese flee,
A lang, lang skein o beatin wings wi their heids toward the sea,
And aye their cryin voices trailed ahint them on the air."
"Oh wind, hae mercy, haud your wheesht for I daurna listen mair."

** Yes, I am a bit worried about AlphaGo becoming a cargo cult.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #15 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:59 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1386
Liked others: 360
Was liked: 386
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
There was a lot written on Sensei's Library about using Japanese (or Korean or Chinese) versus English equivalents. Here's a link to a beginning page which has many links to other pages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?JapaneseGoTerms%2FDiscussion. I think a lot of trouble happens when Japanese (or Korean or Chinese) terms are replaced by English words which do not capture important meanings of the original terms. For example, the Japanese terms nobi and hiraki are both replaced by the English "extension", even though the two Japanese terms are very different.


This post by gowan was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #16 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:54 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 340
Liked others: 302
Was liked: 170
negapesuo wrote:
Wouldn't this have an effect of making Go seem even more foreign to potential players?


You call it "foreign", I call it "exotic" :-)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #17 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:34 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 129
Location: UK, Nr. London
Liked others: 159
Was liked: 66
Rank: 3k EGF 3k KGS
I think this old thread is partially relevant.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11969


This post by PeterHB was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #18 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:42 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 248
Location: Arkansas, USA
Liked others: 193
Was liked: 21
Rank: KGS 8k
KGS: Azumi93
Online playing schedule: When I am in a mood for Go :D
I find it better with japanese terms.

In fencing all terms are in French and no one gives a damn.

In numerous other sports too.

Peace

_________________
Stefany, web programmer

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #19 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:49 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 111
Liked others: 39
Was liked: 30
Rank: ogs 6 kyu
OGS: Wulfenia
tapir wrote:
If you want to reach children and pensioners (the two demographics I eye for the spread of Go) using a foreign language is not a good idea.


I really think that this is completely irrelevant as long as you keep the number of words low. It is not my experience that people are loanword-averse when it comes to hobbies. People in my country like ice-cream flavours with Italian names and France has strict laws about English words in ads because advertisers *will* use them because English is cool.

And whether you call it thickness or strangeness, people will eventually develop an intuition for it *if* it is used consistently. If it is not used consistently, then that is your problem, not the word.


This post by Gotraskhalana was liked by: Stefany93
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #20 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:09 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8877
Liked others: 2651
Was liked: 3016
gowan wrote:
I think a lot of trouble happens when Japanese (or Korean or Chinese) terms are replaced by English words which do not capture important meanings of the original terms. For example, the Japanese terms nobi and hiraki are both replaced by the English "extension", even though the two Japanese terms are very different.


Yeah, but their contexts are different, too. I doubt if that ambiguity causes much trouble. Languages are full of such words. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group