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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #21 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:11 pm 
Honinbo

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tapir wrote:
If you want to reach children and pensioners (the two demographics I eye for the spread of Go) using a foreign language is not a good idea.


Oh, I think that children take it in their stride. They are, after all, superb language learners. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #22 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
tapir wrote:
If you want to reach children and pensioners (the two demographics I eye for the spread of Go) using a foreign language is not a good idea.


Oh, I think that children take it in their stride. They are, after all, superb language learners. :)


True. And it is easier for everyone to say "atari" then "Your stone or group has only one liberty left"

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #23 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:56 pm 
Honinbo

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Stefany93 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
tapir wrote:
If you want to reach children and pensioners (the two demographics I eye for the spread of Go) using a foreign language is not a good idea.


Oh, I think that children take it in their stride. They are, after all, superb language learners. :)


True. And it is easier for everyone to say "atari" then "Your stone or group has only one liberty left"


Or, as we used to say in the college grill, Bondulo! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #24 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Not that many terms are necessary to teach the basic rules of the game.

I use the phrase "breathing spaces" in place of "liberties", never mention the term "atari", and talk about avoiding repeated board positions rather than discussing "ko".

So to get someone playing games, I don't really need any foreign words. Once they are hooked, they can find out more advanced terms, as their curiosity drives them.

This approach has seemed to work well in the teaching I've done at booths or cultural events.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #25 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:02 am 
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Football/Soccer is the sport of the masses over here and it has the English terms corner, penalty, hands (ball), ref(eree), keeper ... to mention only a few words which have become standard Dutch in this context.

As many have stated before, the terms you need for introduction are and should be limited in number. The issue with Japanese terms usually arises when studying the game and developing your intuition. For high dans it doesn't matter anymore, as their comprehension has already developed beyond the level of articulation.

As Bill mentioned, the fact that we talk about "shape" and "thickness" has hardly improved the confusion about these concepts but on the other hand heuristics like "try to achieve the same effect with less stones" and "play away from strong stones" are useful even if your assessment of stones being "effective" or "strong" is not well developed yet.

In other cases, the Japanese term is simply shorter and more elegant than its English counterpart: tenuki vs playing elsewhere, miai vs (creating) equivalent options, sente vs (having/keeping) the initiative, atari vs "taking away the one but last liberty" and no translation will ever beat ko. These are more charming and engaging than deterring, again as many have pointed out before me.

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Post #26 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:06 am 
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I learned the Japanese terms when I first started playing go but now that I am in China I have been learning the Chinese terminology. Off the top of my head there are no homophones in the list. The words might even be easier for people to pronounce than the Japanese. Yet I think the Western outlook on Japan is more favorable than China so we should just keep to the Japanese terms. Though China will probably be the top dog in the go scene for a good long while until the international scene matures, if ever.

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Post #27 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:41 am 
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Translations are sometimes amusing. For example, monkey jump for saru suberi. Saru does mean monkey, but jump for suberi is a little odd. Literally suberi is "slide", not exactly a jump. But tobi is also a jump, but saru no tobi isn't used ;) .

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #28 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:52 am 
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Leading to the reverse monkey jump or jumpy monk:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X X O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , X . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #29 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:19 am 
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gowan wrote:
Translations are sometimes amusing. For example, monkey jump for saru suberi. Saru does mean monkey, but jump for suberi is a little odd. Literally suberi is "slide", not exactly a jump. But tobi is also a jump, but saru no tobi isn't used ;) .


Isn't there a manga character named Sarutobi?

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Post #30 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:05 am 
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Quote:
Isn't there a manga character named Sarutobi?


I think this is part of the Naruto menagerie, but as a fictional ninja Sarutobi goes back to at least Meiji times and is thought to be based on a real ninja. Sarutobi is also an ordinary Japanese surname but the fictional ninja is famous for being able to jump from branch to branch like a monkey.

The go 'monkey jump' has rather a different basis. First, it is a suberi = slide (i.e. a knight's move large or small from the 3rd to 2nd or the 2nd to the first line) and so that needs to be kept in the name. Where the allusion to monkeys is supposed to have come from is the rather clever behaviour of Japanese monkeys crossing fast flowing streams by linking hands and stretching out their legs ('sliding' or 'gliding') from stone to stone. Since the monkey jump is often connected with linking up groups along the edge, this seems a particular apposite metaphor.

The Japanese term has a useful nuance lost in English. The move type called 'suberi' overlaps with the same sort of move called 'hashiri' (run). The difference between them is that hashiri implies something rather energetic and urgent. Suberi is slow and not specially urgent. The significance of that is that most western players treat a monkey jump as sente of the first degree whereas pros are often much more relaxed about it - as befits the mood music that the word suberi sends through the Japanese mind :)


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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #31 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:44 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
But I basically agree with Herman, the Japanese terms might put off some but attract others. Which is more I don't know. I avoid using too many with beginners (just "atari" and "ko" later when that comes up) and tend to only use the Japanese ones where there isn't a good concise English alternative (so I say aji, tenuki, sente, gote, sometimes shimari or enclosure, semeai or capturing race, but approach not kakari and never moku), so only a dozen or two (I'm sure there are past posts with lists).

Here is one such list I made when this topic came up before which seemed to find a fair bit of agreement: viewtopic.php?p=189686#p189686


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Post #32 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:11 pm 
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gowan wrote:
Translations are sometimes amusing. For example, monkey jump for saru suberi. Saru does mean monkey, but jump for suberi is a little odd. Literally suberi is "slide", not exactly a jump. But tobi is also a jump, but saru no tobi isn't used ;) .

Monkey Slide seems to make more sense than Monkey Jump since the move is a slide rather than a jump.
Still, Monkey Jump is more amusing and probably more memorable.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #33 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:56 pm 
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Re: Monkey Jump vs. Monkey Slide

I wonder what other monkeys would think of this—I've always thought of it as being a Monkey Swing, think Tarzan :-)

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #34 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Image

That does not compute. If the base is 5 feet and the difference in height is 5 feet, then the angle is 45 degrees.

But then I have never met a monkey which was good at trigonometry.

Or, perhaps, as the rope appears to be round his waist the question is to find the length of his legs. In which case the answer is 211 cm and it is not Tarzan.

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Post #35 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:56 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
Image

That does not compute. If the base is 5 feet and the difference in height is 5 feet, then the angle is 45 degrees.

But then I have never met a monkey which was good at trigonometry.

Or, perhaps, as the rope appears to be round his waist the question is to find the length of his legs. In which case the answer is 211 cm and it is not Tarzan.

trig or no trig, he still smacks the tree head on.

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Post #36 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Dammit, I should’ve taken one of those Johnny Weissmuller photos :D

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Go have English terminologies for US and EU?
Post #37 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:43 am 
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Stefany93 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
tapir wrote:
If you want to reach children and pensioners (the two demographics I eye for the spread of Go) using a foreign language is not a good idea.


Oh, I think that children take it in their stride. They are, after all, superb language learners. :)


True. And it is easier for everyone to say "atari" then "Your stone or group has only one liberty left"


You are all aware the foreign language in the quoted section is English (which is a foreign language for most Europeans) not Japanese? Indeed atari is easier, that is why it persists, together with terms like tesuji, aji, semeai. But there is zero benefit in using "ladder" instead of "Treppe" or "snapback" instead of "Mausefalle" for German speakers (and similarly for other languages), yet this happens with people who learn from the internet exclusively and the OP indeed asks for English terminology for the "EU".

Relying on English very much limits your reach (outside the UK and Ireland) by age, class, education etc.

Quote:
What makes you think that everyone in the EU has English as their native language? For many people, English terminology is a poor substitution for Japanese terminology and one that only loses the exotic aspects.


Exactly.


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Post #38 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:22 am 
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But there is zero benefit in using "ladder" instead of "Treppe" or "snapback" instead of "Mausefalle" for German speakers (and similarly for other languages)


Not really true. There are now several hundred books (not to mention websites, vidaos, etc) in English using English terms, compared with a handful in German and even fewer in other languages. Access to this literature seems useful. Go is a useful way to learn English. In my experience young Europeans are now especially keen to learn English, and in my view a far more remarkable and useful transformation than the emergence of AlphaGo has been the way young French people often now speak English willingly and well. When I was studying in France 40 years ago, very few French people would make the slightest effort, and for those who did it was usually mere baragouinage.

There is also the problem that not all foreigners pronounce Oriental terms in the same way. I'm sure some will remember haengma being touted as three syllables. Even within English there is no agreement: byoyomi as buy oh yohmi, along the lines of Kyoto with the first part as in kye which is bafflingly common (baffling mainly because the same people pronounce Tokyo correctly). Then we've got those Americans who insist on putting the Oriental names the wrong way round as (in Kaiho Rin).

So, unlike go or hawkit cows, it is not all black and white.

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Post #39 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:09 am 
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Nobody has yet said this, so maybe about time.

It is NOT just that there are many languages around. It is also that some of these languages readily accept "loan words" while others do not.

That makes it strange to see this matter raised with regard to English since that language is perfectly "happy" taking into its own words from other languages. To the point that is quickly forgotten by English speakers that these words weren't always English.


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Post #40 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:30 am 
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Subotai wrote:
The [chinese] words might even be easier for people to pronounce than the Japanese.


My experience is that when speaking with Japanese people, "igo" is usually understood immediatly. With Korean people, "baduk" sometimes need two tries and (iirc) is better understood if you frankly pronounce "paduk". With Chinese people, "weiqi" needs many more tries with random intonations and I often had to describe the game for my Chinese interlocutor to understand.

Granted, I don't speak Chinese (neither Korean), but I think it is by far the most difficult to pronounce and get understood for most people. You seem to have the opposite opinion and I'd be interested to learn more.

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