Quote:
I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. 
Thanks for clarifying! 
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| Game plan as white? http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15390 |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:54 pm ] |
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Quote: I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. Thanks for clarifying!
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
daal wrote: I think you guys are missing the point - I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner? |
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| Author: | daal [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Kirby wrote: Play weaker players, then? This month I'm 4 - 4 against 6ks and 7 - 2 against 4ks... Looks like it's the other way around. Seems my recipe as white could use some spice. Bill Spight wrote: daal wrote: I don't generally avoid slugfests - it's just that if I can fight with an advantage, I prefer to do that  Two words to the wise: Sabaki and Shinogi. Bill Spight wrote: daal wrote: I think you guys are missing the point - I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner? According to AlphaGo it is a stone on the 3-4 point, not facing the black stone |
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| Author: | djhbrown [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
daal wrote: a way to win more without having to improve my go. do like they do in chess: cheat. you can't ask Her Alfieness, but you can ask Leela, or - even better - Swim. |
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| Author: | daal [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Actually, this is sort of going in the direction I was thinking. Here B is likely to play on the left side of the board, where I already have two stones... |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
I dont like this (aka good for white): and therefore recommend this for black: Another way for black is: |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
daal wrote: I think you guys are missing the point - I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. Bill Spight wrote: OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner? According to AlphaGo it is a stone on the 3-4 point, not facing the black stone Sorry for not being clear.  First, I am talking about you, not AlphaGo. (Edit: corrected.) AlphaGo is good at sabaki and shinogi. Second, I meant to ask about your stone on the 4-4, not your opponent's. In this case, it seems that AlphaGo as Black likes nirensei. How about you? Third, I mainly had White in mind. White to play can pretty well force a parallel fuseki by playing  on the 4-4 point of the diagonally opposite corner from  .What is your most effective play in the top left corner? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
daal wrote: Actually, this is sort of going in the direction I was thinking. Here B is likely to play on the left side of the board, where I already have two stones... Black can easily defeat this plan by playing  in the bottom left corner.In fact, when human faces human, Black has good stats with this opening. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
| Author: | Gomoto [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
To return to the original question, it is very difficult to follow a "game plan" as white. In fact it is only possible if black allows you to do so. Therefore my game plan as white is to disturb black's plan and take over the initiative as early as possible. (But you depend on blacks plays and have to wait for your opportunity.) |
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| Author: | daal [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Bill Spight wrote: OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner? Ok, so you mean what would be my  in the diagram below. I hardly have a preference. I would normally play any of a-cBill Spight wrote: Second, I meant to ask about your stone on the 4-4, not your opponent's. In this case, it seems that AlphaGo as Black likes nirensei. How about you? I like it too.Bill Spight wrote: Third, I mainly had White in mind. White to play can pretty well force a parallel fuseki by playing I don't see any of a - c as being particularly effective. I would generally not choose d as it invites black to expand from his on the 4-4 point of the diagonally opposite corner from .What is your most effective play in the top left corner?
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
daal wrote: Bill Spight wrote: OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner? Ok, so you mean what would be my in the diagram below. I hardly have a preference. I would normally play any of a-cBill Spight wrote: Second, I meant to ask about your stone on the 4-4, not your opponent's. In this case, it seems that AlphaGo as Black likes nirensei. How about you? I like it too.Bill Spight wrote: Third, I mainly had White in mind. White to play can pretty well force a parallel fuseki by playing I don't see any of a - c as being particularly effective. I would generally not choose d as it invites black to expand from his on the 4-4 point of the diagonally opposite corner from .What is your most effective play in the top left corner? From your answers I would suggest playing nirensei as White, which you can almost always enforce, and then, if  makes a keima approach, just play the keima response. OC, you still have to decide how to play against sanrensei, the various Chinese and mini-Chinese positions, etc.
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| Author: | djhbrown [ Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Bill Spight wrote: Being unable to speak Go lingua franca, here's my mental image of the game so far (inside means 3rd line and outside means 4th): Attachment: 123.png [ 4.23 KiB | Viewed 7504 times ] People say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, so one might expect inside to be more valuable than outside. However, here, both players have gone more for outside rather than inside, leaving the neutral holes you can see, so i would be tempted to put white 4 in one of (ie. two of) them, ie. either [top inside, right inside], or [top inside, left inside]. However, the Holy Bull God of Heaven snorts at me, proclaiming that [outside left outside, top outside] E16 (not even on Bill's map) is the way, the truth, and the light. Attachment: alfie4.png [ 276.86 KiB | Viewed 7504 times ] PS. HRH Alf also says she would herself play D17, but i think that's only to seduce mere mortal Gilgameshes like demigod KJ into thinking they have half a chance. |
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| Author: | daal [ Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
djhbrown wrote: Being unable to speak Go lingua franca, here's my mental image of the game so far (inside means 3rd line and outside means 4th): People say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, so one might expect inside to be more valuable than outside. However, here, both players have gone more for outside rather than inside, leaving the neutral holes you can see, so i would be tempted to put white 4 in one of (ie. two of) them, ie. either [top inside, right inside], or [top inside, left inside]. However, the Holy Bull God of Heaven snorts at me, proclaiming that [outside left outside, top outside] E16 (not even on Bill's map) is the way, the truth, and the light. Sorry for the confusion! I edited Bill's diagram, so it was me not him who did not consider playing the whizbang move. Lingua franca? That's for woobs who can't tell their butt from a neutral hole. Edit: p.s. looking forward to seeing The Drowning Fish trounce Alphie! |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
djhbrown wrote: Bill Spight wrote: However, the Holy Bull God of Heaven snorts at me, proclaiming that [outside left outside, top outside] E16 (not even on Bill's map) is the way, the truth, and the light. Nope, those numbers are black's "win rate" so E16 is the worst of the shown choices from white's perspective, and d17, the move humans like too, is AG's best. |
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| Author: | djhbrown [ Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
my drawing was a poor external representation of my internal mental image - and to make matters even worse, it led me astray in expressing my preferences, partly because i forgot that despite believing a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, i'm not keen on early 3-3s. this picture is a better expression of what i had in mind; it avoids 1000 words of potentially confusing nomenclature like inside and outside (what Go writers call the inside is geographically on the outer part of the board and vice-versa). Attachment: 123.png [ 148.1 KiB | Viewed 7443 times ] the drawing maps points into squares and vice-versa, and draws (the third and fourth lines of) the 4 corners together to keep it simple. The centre of Go earth is a long way from the outside 4th line, so far that it's not worth thinking about at this early stage, unless your name happens to be Kitani, and maybe not even then. black and white have already occupied three squares, leaving a few green fields of golden calf opportunity. One of them is golden calf Alfie's preferred move, indicated by an early image of one of her Mesapotamian pre-incarnations: Ishtar. The green field sandwiched between the two black ones is scary; it may look green but it could be poisonous. The two green fields in the top right look like hard work to get anywhere, because of black's existing presence. Because white already has a presence in the bottom left, the green fields there are for slowcoaches, not high fliers with wings like Ishtar. |
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| Author: | djhbrown [ Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
daal wrote: looking forward to seeing The Drowning Fish trounce Alphie! Give me 400 million smackers and i'll make it happen, by following the well-trodden path of Bio-Treat and Carillion, subcontracting it all out to suckers on 120-day payments which i plan to not pay 90% of, skimming off the top - and the middle - and the bottom - and running away to the Bahamas.Besides, Swim already rescued Alfie from the jaws of Sedol once - what more proof do you need?! |
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| Author: | daal [ Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:43 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? | ||
I've been trying the nirensei for a while now, but no change in my current abysmal record as white. Here is a game, comments appreciated.
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
daal wrote: I've been trying the nirensei for a while now... Here is a game You aren't very successful at nirensei because you played a 3-4! Just a few opening comments: - nicely dodged top left - n17 probably helps him more than it helps you, I worry you will lose sente but your opponent is kind (extra kind as m16 is bad defence). - o4 nice, c6 also huge. - 28, yes, play c6 and you get both the huge moves you wanted (or should have!) at 26. - 30 wowzers! I'd just q4 and say thanks for giving me a solid corner. p8 does have some big picture flexibility to it, but I'd stick to simple and solid until you are high dan. You lost a lot in the corner - r12 not big area, c6. - r10, weak shape, how to answer q9 or r11? - mv 46, tenuki, c6. - mv 48 q8 connect is fine. big mistake. - mv 50 small, look at big picture, also p6 is a tesuji to get into centre a bit. you want to separate b (stop centre potential and later attack around m3). - mv 54 small again, p6 or c6. - mv56, you played way too much on right side, don't let b make the wall by connecting at q8, or p6 now still recovers a bit, and answer q5 and then b doesn't have a strong group. Left side is way bigger than upper right, you already have an alive stone at r8 (plus p8 jump) at move 39, that's enough. Did you even consider a tenuki in all this time, or were you enjoying the train ride pootling along the right edge you forgot to look out the window?
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| Author: | Majordomo [ Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:57 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? | ||
With the disclaimer that I'm not that much stronger - I'm very uneven anyway (from beating 1d KGS to losing against 5k on IGS on any given day it would appear, I blame it on a sleep schedule and playing environment very much dependent on my toddlers mood - probably 1~2k steady on KGS?). Here's my thoughts! Note: I used CS in a few spots in the endgame to spot-check my intuition - but from everything I gathered this was your game to lose all the way until the very end. This is an issue I often have as well, where I plummet in the endgame despite having a solid lead throughout the game. I think you played too locally and played in settled areas for far too long - aka playing small - also, you attached in the lower left when you absolutely didn't want to strengthen him like that.
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