Yes, this whole dan thing is a terrible little cliche. It should be rather embarrassing to reach the level of shodan and realise that it means you've obtained a level of prowess that was nothing like what you envisaged it to be when it was described to you. I suppose our ego allows us to forget that from time to time.

The land beyond the dan barrier is about as honey filled as the beautiful shape of 3-dan.

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North Lecale

Of course, you're correct that the dan-barrier varies and is a little arbitrary. It reminds me of phrases I see in some Korean go books, except there, they don't reference the amateur dan barrier - the talk about the barrier between amateur and pro!

Nonetheless, dan ranking - in SOME system - can provide a reference point that players can use as a goal. It's kind of a way of motivating players.

Another example: SDK barrier seems like a somewhat newer creation to me. Before, I never thought it mattered much. But if it motivates players to get stronger, why not?

I'd say that having a goal, however arbitrary, can aid in motivation. I've been stuck around 1d on KGS for years. On one hand, it was easier to advance because it gets harder to improve as you get stronger. But on the other hand, I had strong motivation to be a "dan player", so I worked harder.

Now, I could work even harder to be 2d or 3d, but however artificial, the change doesn't seem as meaningful to me. The next meaningful rank increase would be to become a pro, but that seems ridiculous.

So I kind of want to become stronger, but certainly not with as much motivation that I had to get to 1d...

Maybe that's why I'm struggling to find motivation to improve. Ideally, rank would have nothing to do with it, but honestly, getting to 1d was a big motivator for me in the past.

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be immersed

For shame, for shame! Becoming shodan is no more significant than entering primary school. "Yesterday I was in kindergarten, today I have begun to learn." In real life the champion learners are pre-schoolers. In go they are kyu players.



All barriers, in your mind they are. -- Yoda, the real Yoda, that is.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Not too long ago, all or nearly all Korean amateurs were gup (kyu) players.



True. But for motivation, the existence of meaningful steps that are not too far apart is even more important. For amateurs, one rank difference = one handicap stone difference fills the bill. Singling out one rank as more meaningful makes little difference.

Now, I do think that some recognition of expertise for amateurs is a good thing. Being in the top 5% of regular players seems about right to me. I would not call current amateur shodans experts, would you?



Hmmm. If shodan were a couple of stones stronger, maybe you would have been motivated to become a couple of stones stronger? Quien sabe?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Absolutely - I definitely think so, as long as the difference still seemed attainable. For example, if KGS 5d was actually labeled as 1d, KGS 4d as 1k, etc., I definitely think I'd study a lot more, and work to become "1d".

Would I actually make it to the actual KGS 5d level? I don't know, but I'm sure I would have tried.

The fact that a classification exists between dan and kyu is pretty motivating for me, personally.

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be immersed

In the FWIW department, when I met Yamabe, he asked me what dan I was. I replied, "Jodan desu." (I'm a joke.) He laughed and told Takagawa, who was not amused.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Hehe - I guess Takagawa was a level above jodan :-p

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be immersed

Meaningful or not, it is very human to think in terms of discrete transitions rather than in a continuum. I am not sure why is that, never really understood it, although I admit I tend to think like that too, even if reluctantly.

In Go, there can be many such 'transitions': from DDK to SDK, from kyu to dan, from ama to pro... there is probably much more than this, but who cares... to most of us, such transitions are discrete steps, and making those steps means we crossed specific barriers. And yes, it seems to be absolutely arbitrary and independent of the scale you use.

Its just a measure we construct in our minds. In reality, when you win the one game that pushes your rating to the desired 1d, you are not really any stronger than you were yesterday. Passing a pro exam does not mean that you are any stronger than last week. But, stronger or not, it means we have made a certain step, closed a certain chapter, achieved certain goal. And this feels good.

We all like to feel good.
I assume.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Very interesting thesis. In evolutionary terms. Across all species.

I understand that bit about reaching 1d and realizing I still don't understand a lot about go. I think ranks are a problem in general. We have people who won't play because they can't risk a decline in rating. Entirely too much importance is placed on ranks. Bill has pointed out that in Korea 50 or 60 years ago there were no official amateur dan ranks. In Japan students training to be pros had kyu "ranks". In Japanese Kyu and dan have the same meaning (class, step, grade, rank). I think the amateur dan ranks were created when amateur go was organized, the reason probably being to encourage the development of the amateur game and, perhaps, secondarily to provide a larger population to become students of pros.

Oh, I think that it is very human to think, both consciously and unconsciously, in terms of gradations or degrees. In fact, the claim by AlphaGo cheerleaders that humans don't think probabilistically is ridiculous. For instance, unconscious probabilistic thinking by humans is exemplified by the phenomenon of probability matching. Lab rats don't do probability matching.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I do not know who claims humans do not think probabilistic,
but I know what is a rabulistic argument

For me 1d is just 2050 European, nothing more, nothing less. The whole kyu-dan rating is stupid. It's too discrete and too vague.

I think ranking in some systems may be a reference point that players can use as a goal. Is a way to motivate players.

Which is why I hold myself to the standard of being 1 Dan in the hardest ranked systems or not be considered a Dan at all. I'm already Dan in my country and certain servers but I'm not convinced I am yet. I still have kyuu accounts in other servers (though I havent really made the effort to really push for Dan in those) and take it that if I'm not naturally getting to Dan in the other servers then I'm not a real Dan yet.

Interesting, that's basically what I wanted to write on this matter.
Of course, I just started playing Go, but ranks seem to be so different on the servers that I wouldn't feel like calling myself shodan if it is just on the server where it's the easiest to reach.
Right now I'm still gaining ranks very fast and I'm still exploring the different servers. But once everything has stabilized a bit, I'm inclined to use the lowest rank across all servers. Assuming I'm playing regularly there.

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::42::

Years ago it was said that amateur 1d corresponds to having some understanding of the fundamentals. Understanding fundamentals, not mastery. In this sense, 1d would indeed be going from pre-school to elementary school. That transition is still vague, of course. Myself I consider it as meaning that one can now really begin to learn. Even great pros feel they are still learning. Isaac Newton compared himself to a child playing on the beach with pebbles while in front is an ocean that is not understood. At his prime as a player Cho Chikun made a statement of this kind about his own understanding of go.

Note that if you really want to wait to be a 1d in every sytem before calling yourself "1 dan", you'll need to be at pro strength before doing so. In the korean traditional system, a 1 kyu (1 gup in korean) is far stronger than 1 dan in most systems (some say 4-5 dan).