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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #201 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:39 am 
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So the WAGC has just ended.

I think the results tend to agree with the decision.
Carlo has won 3/8 games. One of them, surprisingly (considering his current rank), against Oscar Vazques (5d) - but that's just a one rank difference.
Among his losses:
Amir Fragman 5d(the Israeli team captain, btw, who's recently lost to Reem Ben-David - the "famous" opponent in the said game).
Juri Kuronen 6d from Finland
Vietnamese 5d
and Willem Koenraad Pomstra 5d from the Netherlands

Some of the games (rounds 3 and 6) were recorded and can be found here:
https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/event/amaki ... cords.html

(sadly the game with France didn't take place, and the other win was against a 1d/2d from Iceland)

I didn't really explore the game records, although the result against Korea in the opening was interesting...

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #202 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:52 am 
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It is probably not a good tournament to examine his overall performance with. Given that he has just been accused of cheating, it can't have been the happiest of times, nor the best of preparations for such an event. For me it is more interesting to analyze the individual games themselves. It is always interesting to analyze Go games(!) but here we would be able to see if his PGETC style was holding good, or if he was playing in a different way, or generally just make some banal observations on the games.



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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #203 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 7:06 am 
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So … you really registered for this comment, and with that nickname?
carlozero wrote:
I think bannishing Carlo was mistake.

I like to play with Leela and i learn a lot with it.
When i am playing with Leela i use analysis windows to choose one of the best move. But it is my choice not Leela choice.

Playing Go is expression of my spirit, sometimes i prefer to play moves that is slightly under Leela best choice, because i want to be human not superbot.

So i think Carlo is an artist, and we have to let him express his art with Leela tools.

Carlo is much more in advance than normal go players, he already understand that human is nothing with no AI


Now, if THAT ain’t bad taste, then I don’t know.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #204 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:47 am 
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I am still very much surprised that nobody is really building up a defense for Carlo here. Let's look at the situation after move 70. Before that move all engines tell you B was behind, but 70 was a mistake that brought B a little bit in the lead. Black only temporaril;y increased his lead afetr another slack move at 84, but around move 124 and move 140 the evaluation is almost ewual again. Then white makes another error and loses a group. So white's loss is mailny caused by his own mistakes, not by an opponent who continuesly chose a top move from leela as the accusation was.

Evaluation was done with AQ, which is (~one stone) stronger than Leela 0.11. I aslo used leela zero for this - same result. That was in april, when AQ was still better. Leela Zero is now at least 2 stones stronger than AQ.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #205 Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:02 am 
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Jan.van.Rongen wrote:
I am still very much surprised that nobody is really building up a defense for Carlo here. Let's look at the situation after move 70. Before that move all engines tell you B was behind, but 70 was a mistake that brought B a little bit in the lead. Black only temporaril;y increased his lead afetr another slack move at 84, but around move 124 and move 140 the evaluation is almost ewual again. Then white makes another error and loses a group. So white's loss is mailny caused by his own mistakes, not by an opponent who continuesly chose a top move from leela as the accusation was.
I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say.

To pick up one thread, I'm not sure who was ahead really matters. Here's a counterfactual scenario: suppose I use Leela to pick all my moves, but unknown to me, my opponent is really strong against Leela, because they've learned some pattern it can't handle. I lose. Nonetheless, I cheated.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #206 Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:57 am 
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Jan.van.Rongen wrote:
I am still very much surprised that nobody is really building up a defense for Carlo here.


Hmmm? I've done quite some analysis myself which has thrown considerable doubt on the statistical methods used, Bill has written a lot about the weakness of confirmatory evidence and compared to Regan's work in chess. Plenty of others have chimed in and I'd say the general mood here is sceptical of the conviction.

Or do you mean something more formal to the appeals committee rather than internet chit-chat? People may have taken actions not publicised here.


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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #207 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:46 am 
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The appeal was successful.
Quote:
The Italian appeal has demonstrated the weaknesses of the analysis and
rightly questioned its conclusions. With the available tools it is hard if
not impossible to convince someone of using an outside help in the
internet games. Thus, we do not think that it was proven without a
reasonable doubt that Carlo Metta broke any rules and the decision made by
the league manager should be reversed.

http://pandanet-igs.com/communities/euroteamchamps/409


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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #208 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:49 am 
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I'm pleasantly surprised to see such a quick decision, the EGC will be a happier place now the chief referee has found his innocence.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #209 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:55 am 
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I am also pleasantly surprised to see that the statement is so clear and non-defensive. It can be very hard for people to backtrack from decisions.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #210 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:14 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
The appeal was successful.
Quote:
[…] Thus, we do not think that it was proven without a reasonable doubt that Carlo Metta broke any rules, and the decision made by the league manager should be reversed.

I’m not a native speaker of English, but I think the comma I added here is essential, otherwise it could also be interpreted as follows:
Quote:
we do not think that [it was proven […] and] the decision […] should be reversed.

Am I mistaken?

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #211 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:26 am 
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Bonobo, you are correct that it is syntactically ambiguous, but semantically it is clear enough (even without a comma you can imagine an implied "thus" after the "and").

The English mistake that stuck out to me was "convince": either this should be "convict" or "convincingly show that" (and then "of using" -> "used").


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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #212 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:29 am 
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I am a native speaker of English and thought that the sentence was clear enough as written, although adding the comma doesn't hurt.


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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #213 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Quote:
Am I mistaken?


I'd say you are (i.e. it's not essential). At least I can't imagine any native speaker reading it the alternative way you give, except perhaps an ultra-rationalist on a bad hair day.

It's hard to give a precise reason but the rhythm of the sentence is given by the two "that"s and the fact that the last portion (after "and") doesn't have a "that" marks it out as different. When we read the sentence we therefore automatically put in a very slight pause before the "and". Inserting a comma here would run the risk that we put treat the items as a list (i.e. assume ellipsis of another "that") and so end up with the very alternative meaning you are trying to avoid!

Standards may have changed in recent years but it was long a rule in the UK legal world that all legal documents had to be written without commas. For somewhat different reasons journalists also tend to avoid commas. I found the English of the whole sentence somewhat stilted and if I had been wearing my sub-editor's hat I would have "corrected" it to:

Therefore we do not think that it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that Carlo Metta broke any rules. The decision made by the league manager should be reversed.

This reflects in part another aspect English speakers of at least my generation will recall from junior school - being told time after time not to use "and" (as in: "Write what you did in your holidays." "I went to the seaside and I had an ice-cream and I went on the Big Dipper and I was sick all over and I the man was rude to me and I cried and I had a nice time.") We were also taught that it was not nice to use nice. I suppose the modern version is it's not cool to use cool. Innit?

(I didn't plan it that way, but I notice that I seem to have written all that without a comma....)


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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #214 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Bonobo wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
The appeal was successful.
Quote:
[…] Thus, we do not think that it was proven without a reasonable doubt that Carlo Metta broke any rules, and the decision made by the league manager should be reversed.

I’m not a native speaker of English, but I think the comma I added here is essential, otherwise it could also be interpreted as follows:
Quote:
we do not think that [it was proven […] and] the decision […] should be reversed.

Am I mistaken?


English has a word meaning and not, namely, nor. So we might have, "We do not think A nor do we think B." Which has the same meaning as, "We do not think either A or B." Which has a different meaning from, "We do not think both A and B." For the interpretation you are concerned about, I think that or is the conjunction, not and.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #215 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:14 pm 
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Which body has made the appeals decision?

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #216 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:23 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Which body has made the appeals decision?

I presume the Appeals Commission of the league, which comprises Victor Bogdanov, Ales Cieply, and Frank Jansen.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #217 Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
goTony wrote:
Reading over some of the posts in this topic it seems that we expect someone to use a computer for much of the game.


It turns out that that has been, and still is, a pattern of cheating in chess. You have players whose every move is, according to top chess engines, neither a blunder nor a mistake, and who play only a few inaccuracies per game. Their rating never topped 2200 and suddenly they are playing like super grandmasters.

Such moves will typically be among the top three choices of any given chess engine, which is where I suppose the match one of the top three choices heuristic came from.


The lavatory one was humorous and disappointing at the same time.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/che ... atory.html


and from the US Chess Federation report on the FIDE Congress 2017 https://new.uschess.org/news/walter-brown-fide-congress-nine-new-us-titles-anti-cheating-news/

¨The Anti-Cheating Commission (ACC) meeting was next for me. Members of the Commission feel that the measures in place at the 2016 Olympiad in Baku were a good starting point but can and must be improved. An example would be a player who is to play in a round and takes his cell phone with him. He is checked when he walks in and hands over the cell phone for safe storage. He finishes his game, and goes out and collects his cell phone. He must now exit. He cannot go back in to watch his teammates if he has his cell phone with him. They want even arbiters and other officials not to have cell phones in their possession while in the playing area. Some cases were discussed and it was mentioned that in a few countries, cases are being prosecuted by the civil authorities on fraud charges.¨

The sad fact is it only takes relying on a computer for a single move to be cheating. I do not think serious online tournaments will be an option. Unless you have independent monitors with the players and very strict guidelines as in live tournaments.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #218 Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Lukan wrote:
Everyone who naively thinks, that EGC 2018 will be happier place after the decision, are completely wrong. This decision will actually make it much worse, since most of the top-players are super-angry about it.

Moreover, we all should mind one thing: In the official message from the appeals committee, there is not a single word of innocence...


Lukan, can you elaborate on why you think EGC will be an unhappy place? Was the recent WAGC an unhappy place?

Why are most top players unhappy?

If most top players believe the player to be guilty, on what basis is this belief based?

How do you know it is "most?" I know you're a strong player, but some strong players have come out strongly, in public, in favour of a better process for deciding on situations like this. I am not aware of public statements condemning the decision to reverse the original ban - I guess yours is maybe the first?

While this was not a court of law, I think the common understanding is that someone accused of a crime is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The appeal has concluded that he cannot be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt, hence innocent.


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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #219 Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:30 am 
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Lukan wrote:
Everyone who naively thinks, that EGC 2018 will be happier place after the decision, are completely wrong. This decision will actually make it much worse, since most of the top-players are super-angry about it.
Moreover, we all should mind one thing: In the official message from the appeals committee, there is not a single word of innocence...


Perhaps it is fair to phrase it as "No word of innocence. No word of guilt." The reality for most of us is, you don't have any idea who you are playing, and if they are cheating. I remember one match where all our opponents disconnected at once - I thought nothing of it at the time, but afterwards somebody said to me "Normally that means they were all in the same room". Is turning on webcams going to solve that? No, not if you are strong at cheating. I mean, you can just have some headphones on and say that you are listening to music, but actually you have Sai talking to you :)

Putting suspicions aside, I think Carlo has a unique style. His opponents were not used to it, and so it helped him perform well in the league this year. Next year people will know what to expect, I think his results will suffer.

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 Post subject: Re: “Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A
Post #220 Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:15 pm 
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"a 4-dan level of play in compare to 6-dan level of play is something completely different and the difference is very visible."

Please tell us what is the difference regardless of the dispute and regardless of a particular player's games.

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