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 Post subject: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #1 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:50 am 
Judan

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Popular BadukTV commentator, Kim Sueongryong, was recently in the news as a part of the "Me Too" movement (http://v.media.daum.net/v/20180418113041493). A "foreigner female Korean pro" brought to light his actions from 9 years ago, where Kim allegedly forced himself upon her. Alcohol was involved.

Kim Seongryong will be under investigation for his actions.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #2 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:54 am 
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Kirby wrote:
forced himself

Does this mean rape? Google translate suggests so, but also seems to say the women is a prostitute so I don't trust it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #3 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:11 am 
Judan

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Uberdude wrote:
Kirby wrote:
forced himself

Does this mean rape? Google translate suggests so, but also seems to say the women is a prostitute so I don't trust it.


I didn't know how explicit to be on the forum, but the suggestion is that it was rape, yes. I'll also note that the female foreign pro was originally named in the article, but the name has since been redacted, so I won't discuss it here.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #4 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:25 am 
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2. Controversy
Religious, political, and sexual topics are not allowed. Keep debates civil, and respect that everyone does not share the same view as you do. "Baiting” people by writing anything controversial is not allowed. If the debate becomes too heated or the thread just goes out of control, it will be locked or deleted if the content is found to be lacking or distasteful.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #5 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:45 am 
Judan

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tchan001 wrote:
2. Controversy
Religious, political, and sexual topics are not allowed. Keep debates civil, and respect that everyone does not share the same view as you do. "Baiting” people by writing anything controversial is not allowed. If the debate becomes too heated or the thread just goes out of control, it will be locked or deleted if the content is found to be lacking or distasteful.


This thread is not religious.

This thread is not political.

I suppose it could be argued to be "sexual" due to the nature of the "Me Too" movement. That's why I was careful with the way I summarized the article. But I'm not trying to bait anyone into controversial discussion, and I don't personally view the fact that a pro player is being investigated is really controversial or otherwise inappropriate in nature.

And I feel it's somewhat significant go news, given the popularity of Kim Seongryong - it'd be even bigger news if someone like Lee Sedol were involved.

Anyway, I suppose other opinions may vary, so I don't object to the thread being locked if other admins have a different opinion than me.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #6 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:17 am 
Judan

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Kirby wrote:
tchan001 wrote:
2. Controversy
Religious, political, and sexual topics are not allowed. Keep debates civil, and respect that everyone does not share the same view as you do. "Baiting” people by writing anything controversial is not allowed. If the debate becomes too heated or the thread just goes out of control, it will be locked or deleted if the content is found to be lacking or distasteful.


This thread is not religious.

This thread is not political.


I agree.

Quote:
I suppose it could be argued to be "sexual" due to the nature of the "Me Too" movement. That's why I was careful with the way I summarized the article.


Rape and sexual harassment are offenses of power. Discussing them without being sexually explicit does not make the topic sexual.

Quote:
And I feel it's somewhat significant go news, given the popularity of Kim Seongryong - it'd be even bigger news if someone like Lee Sedol were involved.


This topic is a matter, not just of the people involved, but of the culture of go and the culture surrounding go. That makes this an important topic.

Quote:
Anyway, I suppose other opinions may vary, so I don't object to the thread being locked if other admins have a different opinion than me.


I, for one, would object.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #7 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:20 pm 
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I'm not saying we should lock up the thread, but there have been tendencies for threads to devolve quickly and we should be aware of the high potential for this thread. I just hope to remind everyone to keep it civil.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #8 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
...
Rape and sexual harassment are offenses of power. Discussing them without being sexually explicit does not make the topic sexual...


I agree.

We should be treating this in the same manner as if she accused him of stealing her car, or burglarizing her house, or some other felony allegedly committed by him against her.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #9 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
tchan001 wrote:
2. Controversy
...

I suppose it could be argued to be "sexual" due to the nature of the "Me Too" movement. That's why I was careful with the way I summarized the article...

Anyway, I suppose other opinions may vary, so I don't object to the thread being locked if other admins have a different opinion than me.

I think it should be locked and we should move on. Characterizing the accusation as part of a movement, especially one named "Me Too", IS choosing sides IMHO. Unless, the female involved included that characterization in the accusation herself. So, not on L19 please.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #10 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 pm 
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I speak as a journalist of the old school (i.e. before social media).

This story should not have been published here. The original Korean text is very sparse on details and the English version here adds to that all the confusion that filtering it through a second language brings. We have instantly had the "sexual assault" of the original's title converted into "rape" - both serious but one more than the other and quite possibly wrong.

We have seen in the past couple of weeks or so more examples of social media getting out of hand. The contributors are untrained (lacking even the minimal law training that journalists get) and are not, in effect, suable, and so are uncontrollable. There is no editor seeing the bigger picture. The word ALLEGEDLY, rightly used in the original post, gets lost in every subsequent post. There is no corroboration or fact-checking.

Locking the thread is bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted. It should be removed, or - at the very least - the original post should be supplemented by a full and accurate translation with the source and its status identified. And then kept unlocked so that corrections can be posted.

As someone else has pointed out, using the Me Too umbrella can easily turn into taking sides. Further, professional go players are no different from any other segment of society. They include their share of criminals and deviants. In recent times we have had prosecutions for manslaughter, rape, fraud, domestic abuse and other actions in all the major go-playing countries. To highlight one and not the others risks racialist bias, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #11 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:18 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
We have instantly had the "sexual assault" of the original's title converted into "rape" - both serious but one more than the other and quite possibly wrong.

I was seeking clarification of the accusation as euphemisms like "forced himself" are ambiguous, it could be anywhere from an unwanted hug to rape (and people might assume the later even if the former was the claim). Now you say the original was sexual assault (which itself is broad) not rape, so I agree an accurate translation is needed (and indeed the terms and usage could well vary between languages/cultures).

John Fairbairn wrote:
The word ALLEGEDLY, rightly used in the original post, gets lost in every subsequent post.

I'm not clear who this is addressed at. Me? Kirby said "allegedly forced himself" so I sought clarification of the "forced himself" part so it could be less ambiguously (but incorrectly?) understood as "allegedly raped". Bill was talking in general, so the absence of "allegedly" doesn't imply any guilt on Kim's part to me. tchan was talking about rules rather this case. Joaz did say "allegedly".

John Fairbairn wrote:
As someone else has pointed out, using the Me Too umbrella can easily turn into taking sides. Further, professional go players are no different from any other segment of society. They include their share of criminals and deviants. In recent times we have had prosecutions for manslaughter, rape, fraud, domestic abuse and other actions in all the major go-playing countries. To highlight one and not the others risks racialist bias, too.

I agree the Me Too title is weird if the accuser didn't use it, but maybe Kirby thought it was a gentler thread title than "Kim Seongryong accused of rape / sexual assault". Are there similar cases in the news at the moment in Japan/China/elsewhere? I presume that as Kirby speaks Korean he reads Korean media and reported this news, I don't see how that he doesn't read Japanese or Chinese media and do the same, or post a historical summary of similar cases from around the world, is racialist (or no more so than John Power providing updates on the Japanese Go scene to the AGA eJournal).

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #12 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:17 am 
Judan

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ez4u wrote:
Characterizing the accusation as part of a movement, especially one named "Me Too", IS choosing sides IMHO. Unless, the female involved included that characterization in the accusation herself.


She did.

John Fairbairn wrote:
We have instantly had the "sexual assault" of the original's title converted into "rape" - both serious but one more than the other and quite possibly wrong.


I don't want to beat a dead horse, but 성폭행 is used interchangeably with rape by some native speakers, even if it's not technically correct in all regards. Sexual assault is also a good translation, but native Korean speakers often use 성폭행 to mean rape. My wife is a native speaker and she, for example, doesn't see much of a difference - at least in regard to the intent of the article here.

It's precisely this nitpicking that makes it difficult for women to stand up with the MeToo movement. People will always question the degree of the abuse. The point is that there was allegedly abuse.

In my original post, I just said that the claim was that he forced himself on her (allegedly, he was on top of her). I should have been more careful in clarifying to Uberdude. Due to the ambiguity of what's known to have been claimed, I don't know if the precise definition of "rape" by English terminology was met.

But does it matter? Is it rape truly worse than sexual assault in a case like this? Perhaps legally, but aside from that, I think it's nit picking. Was she wearing provocative clothes? We're they in the "heat of the moment"? I don't know, and that's what the investigation is for.

You could argue about the details in semantics between the two words, but it won't matter until the investigation happens anyway.

It may not be technically accurate in every regard by all who use it the word rape generally in this way way, but the same goes in English. I didn't know the difference in English until I just looked it up. I don't know the specifics of whether the precise definition of "rape" was met.

Literally, I agree that "sexual assault" may be a safer translation here, but "rape" is also listed as a translation of the word in a number of dictionaries.

That being said, I agree that the specifics as to what happened are ambiguous, and are being investigated.

The point is not the specifics of what happened - just that Kim Seongryong is being investigated for charges here.

I am not taking sides as to what he did or did not do.

John Fairbairn wrote:
There is no corroboration or fact-checking.


That's what the investigation is for. The only point to be brought up here is that an investigation is happening.

By the way, the linked article isn't they only source for this information. Other sources were a bit more explicit.

Anyway, given the reaction to the thread, I'm not inclined to continue.

If anyone else is interested in what happens in the investigation, you can look it up yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #13 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:30 am 
Judan

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I'll also add that if you want to nitpick on the word "rape", things are different culturally in Korea than in America or Europe, so the word is not used as lightly. This is something you would know better from living in Korea than from looking up a word in the dictionary.

Sexual harassment is much more common, and the man is often protected even when guilty. In cases where someone was literally raped, it'd be quite likely to be called sexual assault in many cases.

Here, the victim claims to have been drinking a lot and it's even possible that she doesn't know what happened herself to the level of detail that's being requested here.

Anyway, the point is that there's an investigation. I posted it because I was shocked. I've met Kim before, and he was quite kind to me.

Whether he's guilty or not I do not pretend to know in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #14 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:50 am 
Judan

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John Fairbairn wrote:
We have instantly had the "sexual assault" of the original's title converted into "rape" - both serious but one more than the other and quite possibly wrong.


As you can probably tell, the ambiguity that was brought up is bugging me, so I researched a little bit more. Here is an excerpt from the alleged victim's original writing:

Quote:
A씨는 게시글에서 "2009년 6월 5일 김성룡 9단의 집에 초대를 받았다. 같이 오기로 한 친구를 기다리다가 술이 많이 마셨고, 그의 권유대로 그의 집에서 잠을 잤다"며 "정신을 차려보니 옷은 모두 벗겨져 있었고 그놈이 내 위에 올라와 있었다. 그가 나를 강간하고 있는 상태에서 나는 눈을 뜬 것이다"라고 적었다.

출처 : http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_d ... 00842.html


Translated:

Quote:
Ms. A wrote in her bulletin board message, "On June 5th, 2009, I was invited to Kim Seongryong 9d's house. I was waiting for a friend who was supposed to be there, too, and drank a lot of alcohol, and per his suggestion slept at his house. When I woke up, my clothes were all off, and that jerk was on top of me. I opened my eyes as he was raping me."


While there may be some ambiguity in 성폭행, I see absolutely no ambiguity in 강간. Culturally, it's a very strong accusation.

I hope this clears up any details people seemed to deem important here.

There's more to what she wrote, but I won't translate it all here. Some highlights are that about a week after the alleged event, he allegedly contacted her to go to her apartment and was asking the number to her place. She allegedly had to keep checking the lock on the door to make sure it was locked, and couldn't fall asleep until morning. She said for the past 9 years she had to endure these feelings, while he was doing all of these go events. She'd try to avoid him, but when he saw her he'd just smile - it seemed he didn't see the impact of how hard the last 9 years have been on her.

Kim Seongryong hasn't commented, except for saying that he's going to be working through his lawyer. A friend of Seongryong suggested that what happened was mutual. A friend of the victim gives reasons that this can't possibly be true.

The victim indicates that she doesn't want Seongryong to go to jail or anything - just an apology and not to be involved with him in the go world. If Seongryong doesn't apologize and goes down the route of saying that it was mutual, the victim's friend indicated that the victim may consider pressing stronger charges, since it's been less than 10 years since it happened.

Here's another article with some of the above:
http://www.cyberoro.com/news/news_view. ... num=524235
---

All that being said, these are just allegations. There will be an investigation, and I am not taking sides with either party. This is just the accusation. It's public news all over in Korean media outlets, not just go sites. So I'm simply conveying some content from those articles - nothing more or less than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #15 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:48 am 
Judan

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I grew up in a time and place where rape carried the death penalty. When I was 11 or so I looked the word up in a dictionary, and the relevant meaning was "illicit carnal knowledge." That definition was not terribly helpful, but it highlighted the fact that rape is a legal term. As such, it will vary from place to place and time to time. Now in the same place the penalty for rape is not death, but marital rape is illegal. Back then, they wouldn't have executed a man for raping his wife, the idea made no sense. They still don't, but now marital rape makes sense, and is illegal.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #16 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:48 am 
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A news clip from Korean TV station JTBC:

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #17 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:58 am 
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Here is a story which has some striking parallels. There are also striking differences, of course, and legal systems vary, too, but it does show the sort of difficulties that have to be contended with when reporting such cases or potential cases.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43825624

And social media just piles up the difficulties.

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Post #18 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:34 pm 
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(Removing the link I posted here earlier, maybe will repost once more official info is available)


Last edited by sorin on Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #19 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:18 pm 
Judan

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Here is a story which has some striking parallels. There are also striking differences, of course, and legal systems vary, too, but it does show the sort of difficulties that have to be contended with when reporting such cases or potential cases.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43825624

And social media just piles up the difficulties.


I think it would be more similar if the alleged victim made the case public, as is the case here.

Quote:
He said in other cases victims had come forward after a celebrity's arrest and charges had been made public.


In this case, the alleged victim put forth the allegations to the public in a pro forum - it wasn't a case of confidential police charges being leaked or anything like that.

You can argue whether or not the victim is being honest, but that's the case with any such story brought to the public like this. A number of articles directly quote the alleged victim's post.

Yes, a person called out by "MeToo" has their reputation put to risk. Of course it is only justified if the victim is telling the truth. Same with any such case these days (Bill Cosby, etc.).

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement
Post #20 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:16 am 
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Does South Korea give the right of anonymity to complainants/victims of sexual offences, as we do here in England? The reports I've seen include identifying details so fail at keeping her anonymous. In England I think that would be a criminal offence [Edit: unless she's waived anonymity, the situation here seems unclear]: the former editor of the Sun newspaper was prosecuted for publishing a photo of a victim that although pixelated and modified in an attempt to disguise her identity was not sufficient as those familiar with the source photo could still identify her. The 2nd sentence of http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-35931431 suggests they do have anonymity, but the rest of the article and linked WSJ one suggest enforcement and culture could be rather different to in England.

On the other side, there is no anonymity for those accused, but with cases like Cliff Richard's that is a topical issue (Cliff wants it). When anonymity for rape victims (since expanded to other sexual crimes) was introduced in 1970 it was also for defendants but that was repealed in 1988. Some viewpoints: https://www.theguardian.com/society/wom ... -heres-why and https://www.barcouncil.org.uk/media/406 ... _essay.pdf.

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