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 Post subject: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #1 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:46 am 
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I watch a lot of lectures made by pros and try to use them in games. These are vital points, trick plays, opening sequences, etc. I also try to use it in my games to solidify my grasp on it. But I've gotten some feedback online that many people don't like this, or look down on it.

One streamer that I was playing once said "I feel like he went out and learned it just to use it on people. I don't like it." Which is true, I guess... why else would you learn it?

Others online at other times also told me that they prefer to study tsumego instead and heighten their reading. It was almost as if I don't deserve to play the "pre-researched move" unless I get there using my own reading abilities. They also thought playing moves that are just shown by pros are not good or the "right" way to play. (I grasp the sequences that pros show me, but I'll admit I don't always have a grasp of every situation that may occur that they didn't cover).

It's not as if I neglect tsumego, but I also enjoy these lectures very much. I do get spoon-fed on what the best moves to play in certain situations are, so I'll admit that.

What are your opinions on people that do this?

Note: Just from the few responses, I get the same feeling from others online. There seems to be the idea that learning 'pre-researched" move equate to playing moves you don't understand entirely. I think taking moves you learn from pro lectures around for a spin is very different from "I saw this move from AI once so it must be good" type of attitude.


Last edited by negapesuo on Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #2 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:19 am 
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I guess, it's the same story as with studying the opening in chess.

You will get a higher rating short term because you will get a lot of "build order" wins. The downside comes when you start to rely on people playing the "wrong move" and when you stop thinking (reading) for yourself.

Copying moves is okay but the goal should be to develop an understanding, not playing "the professional's move".

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #3 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:29 am 
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Three things:

1) I think it is rude to tell someone their play or approach is wrong unless you have been invited to offer a critique.

2) Moi, I have avoided playing by rote, or doing anything else that way.

3) Everybody is different. Vive la difference! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #4 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:13 am 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
I guess, it's the same story as with studying the opening in chess.

You will get a higher rating short term because you will get a lot of "build order" wins. The downside comes when you start to rely on people playing the "wrong move" and when you stop thinking (reading) for yourself.

I think this only applies when you memorize some trick plays which depend on the opponent falling for the trap.

In general, the problem with memorizing anything - even the correct sequence of moves offering the best possible outcome even if the opponent plays correctly, is that the opponent will often play some hare-brained move which is wrong but which you have no good answer for. And you will be completely out of your element. The opponent will have made the bad move, true, but he will be in a 'reading mode', predicting your responses and having some idea behind it. You will be caught in your 'I just play memorized sequence' mode, and might be caught completely off-guard. This can lead to disaster very fast. Both in go and in chess.

SoDesuNe wrote:
Copying moves is okay but the goal should be to develop an understanding, not playing "the professional's move".

This I Fully agree with! Learning moves is just a first step - and it might actually hurt your game unless you are willing to take the next step as well - reaching the understanding of the idea behind them moves. Learn ideas, not moves.

PS>
This reminds me of an old experience. I was a budding 1d in Germany, during the time of Takemiya beating everybody in sight, some time in the 80's I think. I was re-palying his games religiously and trying to style my play after him. I made this move once in a tournament game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


By itself, this is not necessarily a bad move, but I lost this game badly. When I was later reviewing the game with stronger players, they asked me "Why did you play there?" - and the best I could say was "I saw Takemiya make this move once." I remember everybody smiled politely... it was during the time go players were still polite, long before the servers...

I lost that game because I had no idea what the move was all about and completely botched subsequent plays. Because, of course, my opponent did not play like Takemiya's opponent in the game I "learned". It was a harsh but important lesson.

So, my advice is - play moves you understand the idea behind. In long run, this will give you best results and will lead to faster progress. Even weaker moves backed by a solid idea are much better than perfect moves you just memorized. Play *your* moves, not somebody else's. Eventually, your moves will converge with pro moves, but the path to there lies through understanding, not through memorization or even "learning".

PS.PS>
I think these days this is an even more important advice - with people trying to imitate AI play when they follow completely different thought processes.

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #5 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:49 pm 
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I hold my ground against Leela Zero for 100 moves in every game.

It gets hairy after move 101.

If somebody looks down on this way of playing, he is entitled to do so, but I dont care. It wins you some games against humans. Some people hate this style of playing and may even call it concrete go. But why create weaknesses in your positions if you know how to avoid it for the first 100 moves ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #6 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:27 pm 
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In chess it is common for grandmasters to prepare for matches, and moves are identified in commentary as part of one or the other player's preparation. In go maztch players also prepare, even to the point of trying to cause trouble for their opponent by researching new moves in josekis like the avalance or taisha. No one criticizes this kind of thing. Trick moves, moves that are actually bad if the opponent answers correctly, may be considered sneaky but there's nothing wrong with trying them. You might lose because your opponent finds a refutation. And playing notoriously complicated joseki is dangerous because your opponent might deviate (probably will) from what you expect and your plan backfires because you are in an unfamiliar, risky situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #7 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:08 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
So, my advice is - play moves you understand the idea behind.


To which may I add this advice: Play moves you do not understand in order to increase your understanding of them. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #8 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:17 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Bantari wrote:
So, my advice is - play moves you understand the idea behind.


To which may I add this advice: Play moves you do not understand in order to increase your understanding of them. :)

Heh... I like it. Point taken.

Maybe I should have voiced it as follows instead:
Play moves you have AN idea behind, so you increase the understanding of THE idea behind.

I do not think playing moves you have absolutely no idea about is very productive. Bad idea behind a move is superior to no idea behind a move. If for no other reason that it usually leads to understanding why your idea is bad and you can replace it with good/better idea.

My idea: Go is a game of ideas more than it is a game of moves.

But I might be wrong... Its just an idea I have. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #9 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:23 pm 
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negapesuo wrote:
One streamer that I was playing once said "I feel like he went out and learned it just to use it on people. I don't like it." Which is true, I guess... why else would you learn it?


Sounds like a sore loser to me. If what you studied works, play it. Some things like trick plays will lead to a wall eventually - your tricks might not work on your opponents, and you have to win by other means.

But given that you're aware of that, I'd say any move on the go board is game!

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #10 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:10 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
Play moves you have AN idea behind, so you increase the understanding of THE idea behind.

I do not think playing moves you have absolutely no idea about is very productive. Bad idea behind a move is superior to no idea behind a move. If for no other reason that it usually leads to understanding why your idea is bad and you can replace it with good/better idea.

A long, long time ago, I read some advices for replaying professional games, written by a female Japanese professional (whose name I forgot in the meantime).

One of these advices referred to replaying professional games that have NO commentaries.

In this case, it will foster your development, if you find YOUR reasoning for every move played. It does not matter whether YOUR reasoning is "correct" or "wrong", as long as YOU found a valid understanding for your own. Even a "wrong" one of YOUR reasonings will help you remembering these professional moves.

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Post #11 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:34 am 
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Everybody plays pre-researched moves, up to a certain point: openings , josekis. But some people may not like when

1) Game is over at move 40 because they answered incorrectly when opponent played a rare joseki, so they feel there was no game and they didn't learn anything useful since they will almost never encounter the joseki again.

2) The opponent plays trick moves.

Personally I don't care. If I lose it's my fault and not my opponent's.

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #12 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:43 am 
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Most trick plays require cooperation of both players to embark down the complicated lines rather than just being sprung on an unsuspecting opponent in a normal position, so the trickee usually has a choice like "hmm, this is a weird move, it looks like it asks for too much, do I attempt to punish it and get into a complicated fight, or accept a compromise which might be a slightly slack result but low risk of me messing up". For example if they play the taisha you can choose one of the dodge lines, or rather than large avalanche solid connect, or don't play a in https://senseis.xmp.net/?NineteenPointTrickPlay. If you choose the former and then get tricked, you have nothing to complain about IMO. Of course if you compromise maybe you lose a little, but the game is long and you'll have plenty of chances to play outside of pre-researched moves later to let your 'raw' skill decide the game.

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Post #13 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:55 am 
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Another thought that came to mind: In AYD lectures, Inseong often says that he likes to play moves that annoy his opponent. So if you are annoying your opponent with a sequence you studied, perhaps you can view it as a sign of success ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #14 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:45 am 
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Trick plays can be insulting. Not all, but many are of the variety of "I'm playing a move that I know is objectively wrong because I think you're too stupid to answer properly". Though of course, some trick plays when refuted will still gives a position that is playable, if inferior, and that might lead to the sort of game you enjoy playing. In which case it's fair (doubly so if you're also playing the opponent so that you give him a position he doesn't enjoy, even if it's theoretically good for him).

For the other sorts of pre-researched moves, it might result in "fake strength", when the moves you make are backed not by reading, evaluation and experience, but by superficial and half-remembered knowledge. Such moves are bad because they don't really help you progress as a player.

If you can avoid both of those situations, then prepare all you want.

(Also, there's another factor in why unusual moves are frowned upon, when you play against someone who has really bad opening skill, and start looking down on him, but you forget he's around your rank for a reason and end up dying everywhere, or you fail to punish his greed. People generally feel like they didn't deserve their loss in such situation and blame the unusual moves.)

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #15 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:48 am 
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Bki wrote:
Trick plays can be insulting. Not all, but many are of the variety of "I'm playing a move that I know is objectively wrong because I think you're too stupid to answer properly".


Why do you feel insulted? If you know the correct response, play the correct response. If the guy playing this keeps losing from it, he'll naturally be obliged to find better moves. This is not limited to trick plays. Suppose your opponent reads out a variation that seems to work, but in fact, it doesn't quite work. You know the refutation to that sequence that he read out. Is it insulting that he could think to play out a variation that is not working? Or he plays out a ladder that's not working - is that insulting? I don't understand the reason to find insult here.

Maybe it's because your opponent believes that he knows something that you don't. That's OK, isn't it? Show him that he's wrong.

Quote:
For the other sorts of pre-researched moves, it might result in "fake strength", when the moves you make are backed not by reading, evaluation and experience, but by superficial and half-remembered knowledge. Such moves are bad because they don't really help you progress as a player.


Pre-research doesn't imply half-remembered knowledge. It could mean that you understand the nuances of a board position better than your opponent. Any sort of joseki study could fall into this category. If you win games by studying patterns, and go on to play stronger players, is that not progress as a player? Professional players do pre-research all the time on opening formations. In tournaments, it's good to start the game in familiar territory, so that you can focus your energy on the less-researchable aspects of the game.

Pre-researched moves are, in fact, a form of experience. By going over a position before the game, you gain experience about the nuances of that position. Similarly, by playing out a sequence in a real game, you also gain experience. It's nice to think that, as go players, we back all of our moves by precise consideration of all possible responses and sequences, without any sort of knowledge known beforehand. But I don't think that's the case. Otherwise, a player who just learned the rules would have the capability to beat an experienced player, since any additional knowledge is "superficial".

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 Post subject: Re: Why are "pre-researched" moves looked down upon?
Post #16 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:25 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Bki wrote:
Trick plays can be insulting. Not all, but many are of the variety of "I'm playing a move that I know is objectively wrong because I think you're too stupid to answer properly".


Why do you feel insulted? If you know the correct response, play the correct response. If the guy playing this keeps losing from it, he'll naturally be obliged to find better moves. This is not limited to trick plays. Suppose your opponent reads out a variation that seems to work, but in fact, it doesn't quite work. You know the refutation to that sequence that he read out. Is it insulting that he could think to play out a variation that is not working? Or he plays out a ladder that's not working - is that insulting? I don't understand the reason to find insult here.

Maybe it's because your opponent believes that he knows something that you don't. That's OK, isn't it? Show him that he's wrong.


The answer to all of that is literally in the part you quoted. A trick play is a move you know is wrong but that you play anyway. Unless it's teaching game and you're trying to test your opponent (and even then, I don't think trick plays would be the best way to test him/her). In a complicated position, you play move that your reading say works, or that you feel work when the situation is too complicated to fully read. Sometime you're wrong, but if you realized that before playing that move, you would play something else (unless maybe you're desperate and decide to gamble one last time before resigning).

Of course some tricks play gives reasonable positions even when refuted and there's nothing wrong with those.

Quote:
Quote:
For the other sorts of pre-researched moves, it might result in "fake strength", when the moves you make are backed not by reading, evaluation and experience, but by superficial and half-remembered knowledge. Such moves are bad because they don't really help you progress as a player.


Pre-research doesn't imply half-remembered knowledge. It could mean that you understand the nuances of a board position better than your opponent. Any sort of joseki study could fall into this category. If you win games by studying patterns, and go on to play stronger players, is that not progress as a player? Professional players do pre-research all the time on opening formations. In tournaments, it's good to start the game in familiar territory, so that you can focus your energy on the less-researchable aspects of the game.

Pre-researched moves are, in fact, a form of experience. By going over a position before the game, you gain experience about the nuances of that position. Similarly, by playing out a sequence in a real game, you also gain experience. It's nice to think that, as go players, we back all of our moves by precise consideration of all possible responses and sequences, without any sort of knowledge known beforehand. But I don't think that's the case. Otherwise, a player who just learned the rules would have the capability to beat an experienced player, since any additional knowledge is "superficial".


Hence the "it might result". It's not that pre-researched moves are inherently wrong but how many amateur go about using them and learning from them (or rather, they aren't actually learning from them).

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Post #17 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:38 am 
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Bki wrote:
Trick plays can be insulting. Not all, but many are of the variety of "I'm playing a move that I know is objectively wrong because I think you're too stupid to answer properly".

Hmm... If this is what you think, lemme ask you a question? Did you ever fall for a trick play? I bet you have... and what do you think that makes you? ;)

Generally, getting offended during the game by a bad move is not a smart strategy. Much better to punish it and move on.

PS>
There are advantages to being tricky in a game, I think. A simple example: when you notice that your opponent has a tendency to hang on to stones that should have been sacrificed, you might devise a 'trick play' to take advantage of it. Not to mention that it can be a part of a psychological warfare - you play a lot of trick moves and your opponent eventually gets overwhelmed and stumbles. If you are smart about it, it might work. I know some players who play like that and have decent results - although they do not progress very fast, so there is that.

Having said the above, I would never recommend it. And - of course - I would never play like that myself. I always make the best possible moves. Remember that if we ever meet across the board. ;)

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Post #18 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:17 pm 
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Quote:
The answer to all of that is literally in the part you quoted. A trick play is a move you know is wrong but that you play anyway. Unless it's teaching game and you're trying to test your opponent (and even then, I don't think trick plays would be the best way to test him/her). In a complicated position, you play move that your reading say works, or that you feel work when the situation is too complicated to fully read. Sometime you're wrong, but if you realized that before playing that move, you would play something else (unless maybe you're desperate and decide to gamble one last time before resigning).


My point is not that I think it is a good strategy to play a move that you think won’t work. Rather, it is that I don’t understand what there is to be offended about.

As a side note, if a non-working move works, it was a working move. But anyway, what is there to be offended about? Do you feel that your opponent is suggesting that you are not intelligent? Something else?

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Post #19 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:06 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
Bki wrote:
Trick plays can be insulting. Not all, but many are of the variety of "I'm playing a move that I know is objectively wrong because I think you're too stupid to answer properly".

Hmm... If this is what you think, lemme ask you a question? Did you ever fall for a trick play? I bet you have... and what do you think that makes you? ;)

Generally, getting offended during the game by a bad move is not a smart strategy. Much better to punish it and move on.

PS>
There are advantages to being tricky in a game, I think. A simple example: when you notice that your opponent has a tendency to hang on to stones that should have been sacrificed, you might devise a 'trick play' to take advantage of it. Not to mention that it can be a part of a psychological warfare - you play a lot of trick moves and your opponent eventually gets overwhelmed and stumbles. If you are smart about it, it might work. I know some players who play like that and have decent results - although they do not progress very fast, so there is that.

Having said the above, I would never recommend it. And - of course - I would never play like that myself. I always make the best possible moves. Remember that if we ever meet across the board. ;)


Just because I said I feel it's insulting doesn't mean I get offended and angry when it's played against me. It doesn't make it any less a sign of disrespect (or desperation, but desperation usually happens later in the game than when most trick plays would get played), because, again, it's a move you know doesn't work. If you can realize the move doesn't work, it's natural to expect your opponent also can do so. Then if you're trying to win the game you won't play that move (unless all the other options are also clearly losing and you chose the most complicated one). It's even worse than the pointless endgame invasion into solid territory because those at least usually just end up not changing the final score so there's no real cost to trying (though it is amusing when someone try and die in gote and you end up winning by half a point).

I don't dispute that there might be strategy where using such moves might be legitimate, like if you're playing the opponent rather than the board, or to try to compensate for a high handicap. But well, those are special situations.


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