It is currently Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:00 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How is this position considered even?
Post #21 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:12 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:
Does it matter that white retains sente after this sequence?


The net number of stones matters. In both cases Black has one extra stone. For equity, early in the game Black should have around 14 pts. more than White, including pts. for influence. At the end of the game one extra stone may not be worth any territory at all.


My understanding of what it meant to have sente in this situation is that white can now consider the relative value of a move locally to the value of a move somewhere else.


What it means is that White plays elsewhere.

Quote:
White retains the option of playing locally as you suggest,


Not my intention to suggest that.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How is this position considered even?
Post #22 Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:14 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 388
Liked others: 295
Was liked: 64
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Bill Spight wrote:
The thing is that equity in a joseki does not mean equality. Rough equality depends upon each player playing the same number of stones locally. Equity does not. Black started off with around 14 pts. in the corner. After 10 more moves, 5 by each side, we expect the value of the corner to remain around 14 pts. (Actually, because Black cashes in the komi as play proceeds, we expect Black to have gained around ½ pt. or a little less in 10 plays.) If Black had taken sente in the joseki, then, with correct play we would expect the local result to be around 0, plus a little bit for Black.

The longer the joseki, the less, on average, we expect each play to gain, until, in the extreme, each play gains nothing. In that case it does not matter whether White retains sente or not. (This is actually an argument in favor of tenuki, BTW. :D)


I think I see what you are saying now. This is a very interesting way to think about what is going on in a joseki. I'm going to have to think more about it, but this is very helpful.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How is this position considered even?
Post #23 Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:33 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
The thing is that equity in a joseki does not mean equality. Rough equality depends upon each player playing the same number of stones locally. Equity does not. Black started off with around 14 pts. in the corner. After 10 more moves, 5 by each side, we expect the value of the corner to remain around 14 pts. (Actually, because Black cashes in the komi as play proceeds, we expect Black to have gained around ½ pt. or a little less in 10 plays.) If Black had taken sente in the joseki, then, with correct play we would expect the local result to be around 0, plus a little bit for Black.

The longer the joseki, the less, on average, we expect each play to gain, until, in the extreme, each play gains nothing. In that case it does not matter whether White retains sente or not. (This is actually an argument in favor of tenuki, BTW. :D)


I think I see what you are saying now. This is a very interesting way to think about what is going on in a joseki. I'm going to have to think more about it, but this is very helpful.


Sorry, I made an error in the quote, which I have corrected. Because White plays first in the 10 move sequence, we normally expect White to have gained a fraction of a point, not Black.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group