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 Post subject: Re: Problem from a chinese problem book set.
Post #21 Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:58 am 
Gosei

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I first encountered these patterns very recently in an Internet Go School lecture (though in that lecture Jennie Shen puts :b1: on the third line), and it was all very new to me. So I am pretty sure there are a lot of 4ks around who don't know anything about these lines.

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 Post subject: Re: Problem from a chinese problem book set.
Post #22 Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:56 pm 
Lives with ko

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Bill Spight wrote:
zac wrote:
A much easier example;

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . , . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

How easy is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . , . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


Now what?


Don't be silly, Bill. All my opponents are polite gentlemen that play the "correct" response!! :lol:

I went back to look at the example given in Jump Level Up, and I was wrong about the position, but the move is similar;

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . 8 . . 4 . . .
$$ | . . . . . X 3 5 . .
$$ | . . X X . X O . 2 ,
$$ | . . X O O O 7 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]


No explanation for if 5 is a hane, so no help from them

My first thought is that there are two cutting points to aim at;

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 3 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . X 2 T . .
$$ | . . . X . X O . 1 ,
$$ | . . . X O O T . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]


I think I can cut the lower point directly, and end up with a big corner...But it will take a bit more reading to be sure that white can't get a better result on the outside. Of course, when I say "easy", I mean for someone that knows what they are doing :lol: I imagine more people are familiar with this shape rather than the other problem, but being familiar with seems to be a bit different than actually knowing something.


Last edited by zac on Thu May 10, 2018 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #23 Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:55 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi zac,
Quote:
I was wrong about the position, but the move is similar;
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . 8 . . 4 . . .
$$ | . . . . . X 3 5 . .
$$ | . . X X . X O . 2 ,
$$ | . . X O O O 7 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]
I'm not following what was correct and what was wrong.
Could you elaborate -- maybe with one diagram labeled 'correct', and one labeled 'wrong' ? Thanks.

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Post #24 Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:15 pm 
Lives with ko

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EdLee wrote:

Could you elaborate -- maybe with one diagram labeled 'correct', and one labeled 'wrong' ? Thanks.


Hi Ed,

My memory of the position from Jump Level Up was wrong, i.e. I thought that the position in Jump Level Up was this;

When W tenuki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X O . 1 ,
$$ | . . . X O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]



But it was actually;

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X . X O . 2 ,
$$ | . . X O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]


In either case, the shape that is being taken advantage of is the same, and the same move is correct. Just a different follow up. I guess recognising some shape is a good guide to find a good move. I just wanted to clarify, for anyone that has JLU and might look for it, and also to add another example with it's suggested follow up.

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Post #25 Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:52 pm 
Honinbo
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Thanks, zac.

Similar-looking shapes, but different.

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