Life In 19x19

Random Ramblings
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Author:  Elom [ Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

When I believe that losing from a blunder is fair and just reason to lose a game, I think I feel and play better. So if someoneone loses a game from such a slip, they should better unite the different elements of their play and look towards the future. Or play some atari-go. And maybe give atari-fives instead high-fives :).

Author:  EdLee [ Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

Newkyu 4x4 board
Teach capture go, rulesets and basic endgame principles on 7x7 board
Beginner 9x9 board
Teach basic joseki on 13x13 board
19x19 board
It depends immensely on the individual.
Special cases:
- When Mr. Michael Redmond was a child, he would just quietly and patiently watch his father play Go with friends. Later, Michael got hold of some kind of Go book (say, a joseki dictionary or a life-and-death problem set) and in a relatively short time promptly memorized it.
- Another pro had no memory of anyone teaching her the rules; but only memory of watching adults play and figuring out the rules by herself from watching.
- We have a local member with a learning disability -- even after one year, still doesn't understand eyes. For example, even after one year of detailed, step-by-step instructions, repeatedly and in varying methods, still doesn't understand the status of :black: for this shape:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . O O O O O O O O . .
$$ . . O X X X X X X O . .
$$ . . O X . . . . X O . .
$$ . . O X X X X X X O . .
$$ . . O O O O O O O O . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . .
This is a rare exceptional case, but it highlights why it depends so greatly on the individual.

Let's define a raw beginner as a random coffee shop patron who sees Go for the first time in their life; a beginner-2 as someone who returns a second time to the club, a beginner-3 a third time, etc.

I've had experience teaching raw beginners, beginner-2's, and beginner-3's from age 5 through age 70's for the past 15 years. Probably in the hundreds range, total.

In general, I'd say these are too early for beginners: complications of various rulesets, endgame principles, basic joseki. ( Of course, there are always exceptions. )

For the raw beginner: just the most basic rules ( no more than can fit in a normal font on one side of a business card ). Zero jargons: I avoid jargons as much as possible for the raw beginner; thus I don't say: liberty, eyes, ko, throw-in, etc. In general, I don't even mention the term atari to the raw beginner. I demonstrate the concepts of dame, atari, and captures visually and in normal everyday language, without jargons. I feel the concepts are important, not the jargons. It's my preference when teaching raw beginners. Maybe there are people who have greater affinity with jargons and can learn faster with jargons -- so YMMV here.

In general, for a raw beginner, even up to a beginner-3 (as always, exceptions apply):
- the most rudimentary rules ( zero jargons );
- the most fundamental capturing exercises ( capturing a single stone in the center, the side, and the corner; capturing the smallest group with 1 real eye; etc. )
- the most fundamental rescues: saving 1 single stone in atari, etc.
- capture-1 on 9x9 ( just a few iterations, to see their digest levels );

| (the down-arrow 'v' in the quoted text above)

This down-arrow 'v' depends immensely on the individual:
For many beginner-3's, they never made it past capture-1 to a full 9x9 game.

Sample: last night at the coffee shop, a recent university graduate showed up. He's currently applying to graduate schools in the U.K. but is in town for a few months. He had played some 9x9's with friends and against engines. He had only played two 19x19 games before last night. He played his third 19x19 game with our 10kyu member. He played his 4th 19x19 with me; 9-stone -- he was ready. So it depends greatly on the individual.

Author:  jlt [ Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

EdLee wrote:
He had played some 9x9's with friends and against engines.

You didn't specify how good at 9x9 he was before starting 19x19.

Author:  EdLee [ Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:26 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi jlt, because I have no idea. :) Sometimes, you just play.

Author:  Elom [ Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

Fascinating Edlee. Avoiding jargon until needed sounds great :).

It seems that to stay safe, one must only introduce the basics of a concept the smallest size it properly appears, and advance depending on the person learning. Capture go should be at 4x4 in the sequence, although introducing a Chinese art of life and death makes go look like Kung Fu :blackeye:.

Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

Elom wrote:
introducing a Chinese art of life and death makes go look like Kung Fu :blackeye:.

You start with harakiri, of course. :shock:

Author:  Elom [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

What if go has two dimensions of space and a sole dimension of time? If so, it means each stone makes melodies as a one-dimensional string vibrating according to the other stones around it. It's length spans between the start and end of it's life. This go string theory sounds like something from djhbrown :lol:.

Maybe oftentimes, one could avoid telling a beginner that a move is bad outright by instead stressing that the timing is not good :blackeye:.

Author:  EdLee [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:35 am ]
Post subject: 

one could avoid telling a beginner that a move is bad...
Remember that before AG, some pro assessments of the goodness and badness of certain moves for hundreds of years were not only wrong, but exquisitely wrong. :blackeye:

Author:  Elom [ Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

EdLee wrote:
Remember that before AG, some pro assessments of the goodness and badness of certain moves for hundreds of years were not only wrong, but exquisitely wrong. :blackeye:

It reminds me of a concept mentioned before. If a professional's student play the wrong move, it must be in the right area :).

Author:  Elom [ Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

Ah okay maybe this is better.
Acuity/Athleticism| Mindset*

*(includes things like thinking of the game from your opponents perspective)

Belts update
But I heard some teachers of martial arts do not think of belts as helpful. If you're at stage B, maybe rank is the last thing to stress over.

Go life cycle.
D fun discovery, just do it. Imitate pro games. Focus on quantity: lose a hundred games! (Smaller boards speed this up).

C Casually learn basic concepts (mostly simple endgame). Also increase creativity, which is only useful now for fun but may be helpful in later stages.

B Progression pace decreases, review your games more. Quality over quantity (longer games). Discard bad habits (both in go technique and attitude). Focus less on rank and more on style, which only fully forms when with pro strength correct technique. Be.

A Acquire more advanced knowledge (more fuseki and Joseki). Go.

P Peak. Potential. More blitz games again as you have fewer bad habits. Study professional games more.

Repeat! Stage P is just stage D reborn.

The funny thing is these belts are based on Mamu ratings :lol:

1d spans 0.0 to <1.0, 2d spans 1.0 to <2.0, etc

Black belt with a middle stripe: White 1d, Yellow 2d, Green 3d, Blue 4d, Red 5d, Brown 6d, Solid black belt is 7d and maybe you could have 8d be grandmaster.

Brown 1k-5k. Red 6k-10k. Blue 11k-15k. Green 16k-20k. Yellow 21k-25k. White 26+

Each belt has: First kyu solid, Second kyu one white dot, Third kyu one white stripe, Fourth kyu white dot and stripe, Fifth kyu two white stripes.

White belt, middle stripes brown to yellow for 26 to 30 kyu, below that it is solid. Stronger than 25k may have a black middle stripe

But I prefer cool beginner badges much more now :lol:.

Author:  Elom [ Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

Some maybes.

9x9 is best to quickly get to life and death (earth greenery and fire).

19x19 adds more speed and shape and form perhaps (wind and water).

Author:  Elom [ Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

Ay, atari.

I forgot to mention that if you play on 9x9 more than a small while...

You might say they're you dual^2 days...


Author:  Elom [ Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

. Heaven
| Humanity
_ Earth

vital points for attack

Wind speed, timing, moving first on important points, response to shape, winds of change Water shape haengma response to speed

vital points for defence

Maybe fire overlaps with earth and wind overlaps with water, creating two axes of improvement with the centre of the compass as the origin. You improve squared. . .

Author:  Elom [ Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

I should be able to really read more now (before I was just getting confused and rereading over again).

Author:  Elom [ Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

I've had another mobius link to something I was thinking about!

Getting stronger by setting point zero and getting closer by Zeno-ing up.

But shifting point zero should change the way you train at the start in terms of picking up bad habits.

If kyus were pars. . .


Author:  Elom [ Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

What reviewing a game backwards would be like? The fewer options towards the end of the game should be easier to analyse, and you may be less affected by any previous moves for a more objective eye on each position.

Author:  Elom [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

This is more a putting together of things with no real way to say them. While I can be a bit obtuse with these, it is not in any way meant to be critical; rather, the opposite. It's not my place.

more Intense


more casual

int .Expert Knower
cas Knower Link
—————advancement rate>
Four player go
Red, Green, Blue, Gray.
Each side can only play in the ten rows closest to them (I initially thought furthest, but those smaller may need to reach more).

The distribution of players and their strength may look like a biconvex stone. Since those new to go struggle to find a game, single sites or servers with multiple mindsports may be best suited for this purpose. Although the one where I begun is a bit odd, apparently (Flyordie).
The WSMG organisers looked to host the event in the same city of that years summer olympic games, but was that the best approach?

Could they independently set up a Spring Olympics for mindgames and an Autumn Olympics for e-sports (or, perhaps, branded games in general)? Perhaps learn from rather than follow big organisations?

Stepping back to try to see things from some sort of whole-board perspective, another idea arises; joining both mind and e sports with the winter olympics. This is based on teaming up with those that could do with more help in instead of begging to join an event already large; it is like joining up three weak(ish) groups. A related concept is seeing if your problems are someone else's solutions and vice versa, solving anything that might set a maximum limit to growth before things get to big to change (another advantage of being small is that the shorter individual having to reach for things in their life gain a habit that might lead them to success. People with disabilities that make physical difficult can often enjoy equal competition in a thinking game).

On that note, long-term, sustainable growth may be training your 'natural neural net' by replaying pro games, learning new concepts, and solving normal to easier tsumego. Short-term, rapid growth would be memorising unit information such as set patterns or common corner shapes, playing and reviewing games, and getting sleep and exercise. You might prepare for a big tournament this way. I remember that Antti Tormanen 1p also mentioned two modes of study!
The cap-base way of seeing Go was based of off the MBTI. Here is a new draft!

Thinking skills Feeling
I Organisation Attitude
E Calculation Care*

*Thinking from the opponents perspective.

Perception—vision/skill in Go or any other art
Sensing Intuiting
I Knowledge Foresight
E Observation* Pattern-recognising

*Along with IF, might help prevent blunders!
Point Zero

You can often learn things well when looking through the lens of go; perhaps it's a truth as a game. The first dimension may be time. AI may as of yet struggle with 9x9x9. I didn't expect to learn so much for life from go.
These are funny timing classifications all perfect information and most other games may use (Total game time under... (Going down in negative powers of two))

Art timings
Zen: Lasting most of the day, or even longer (24+)

Deep: Requires heart and Seoul. (12h)

Long: You make use of most of your skills. (6h)

Normal: (3h)

Sport timings may succeed in the winter olympics where art timings would not work.

Normal: (3h)

Sonic (mach 1): As fast as you can explain and verify your moves. (1h 30m)

Dizzy not work: As fast as you can think (Judge). (45m)

Lightning: As fast as you can play (Perceive)! (22m 30s)
I wonder where point 0 would be if random play was at -19 and 3/4 winning strength would move one up a level. Granted, it must be possible to play worse than random.

I was posting a point mainly about time and MM before the thread was locked— please delete this part if you see fit

Humans can perceive a single dimension as sound, two dimensions as three as concepts and language.

John Fairbairn mentioned a professional being able to instantaneously see a ladder some forty moves deep—her epicness was the result of her 'seeing' the sequence as she could see that the sky is blue and the grass is green.

So perhaps perception is vision. This is what faster games showcase in professionals—the years of training and preparation, of continually training their vision up to that very moment. It makes it most appropriate to find out strength differences between humans and even bots or both intermixed: AI cannot compete with humans as well with even time or processing power yet which shows the power of perception in humans. The strength difference between players are shown clearer in fast games... Most amateurs with weaker fundamentals stand no chance at all... For the reasons, faster games could be seen as honouring pros...

...But at the same time, as one pro said something along the lines of, it may also be seen a bit like treating them as clowns if that is all you want to see them do.

Different pros will have different opinions, different preferences I'm sure. I am one of those with a more negative instinctive reaction to the term MM, but it lessoned a little after hearing some explanation. I had a small change in perception, vision. But I will look through it in the lens that as always helped me: go.

Balance and compromises. Because the languages we speak in, such as English and others, are human constructs, there is no point zero, no perfect play, no divine game. This means that anytime you go on an international forum, you should expect to compromise in both being offended or even a little hurt, and avoiding causing offense. In fact, it may be right to say most go players consider the endgame to be a science but the opening an art as in the early-game options are vast and the style a pro plays in makes a big difference in whether she or he will be successful— for thid reason, I don't think AI will dominate go openings.

For example, the best solution I see so far for MM is a half-and-half approach— we lose some meaningful connotation if we lose the term, but it should still used only when necessary. For terms with more serious issues, one would need a strong case as to why it's needed— perhaps even so, a euphemism can be used.

In the future, as we try improve on a universal language, debates concerning the precise definition of terms will become more commonplace as we realise many of the world's problems are from poor communication— we will see ourselves as almost a bit backwards in that regard. But I also think in the future, we will value the mind far more and consider mindsports as just as valid as physical sports. I thought of timings for mindsports if they and e-sports&branded games merged with the Winter Olympics. Long time limits may be used in the far future where the mind may be respected more but earlier on those time limits will not work!

Author:  Elom [ Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

EN should probably be INsight :)

Author:  Elom [ Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

Looking through the amber resin, it's been said that Honinbo Dosaku was, in general, a bit like AI relative to others of his time. Along that train of thought, he may have mordern-ish games both old and beautiful and tangling strategy and tactics on many an event.

Author:  Elom [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Random Ramblings

Sorry for some of my posts recently. Thank you for putting up with me, hopefully I might be able to play more actual go soon.

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