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 Post subject: Random Ramblings
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:32 am 
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A little more of my bad habit of writing on things I'm uninitiated in.

Demographics

From more musings, I wondered about approaching different age demographics:

0-19

20-29

30-49

50+

And strength demographics:

The Dans

1-9 kyus (SDK's)

10-19 kyus (DDK's)

20-29 kyus (TPK's)

20+ Kyus

And thought, any community or organisation, in our case Go, might try to obtain rapport with each of these groups by giving something needed by each of these demographics. Engagement and education to 0-19 year olds. Health for double digit kyus. But overlaying individual allocations of needs from each group in matrix form provides 16 different categories to think of when trying to promote go! Surely, there has to be a better way?

0-19 Education, mental capability, engagement, teamwork and social skills... ?

20-29 Engagement, exploration, practise... ?

30-49 Stress relief, high-value-for-time... ?

50+ Relaxation, social activity... ?

Okay, I'm ignorant


Well, there may be. It's hard not to think of the needs of the 0-19 and 30-49 groups as anything but interrelated in the form of family, and likewise, 20-29 and 50+ group members may have much to offer between themselves. Therefore, we could group them like this:

A: 0-19 and 30-49

B: 20-29 and 50+

A bit easier thinking of shared needs, maybe.

The Dans— Make their own meaning

1-9 kyus (SDK's)— Majesty

10-19 kyus (DDK's)— 50% 'decorating', Health

20-29 kyus (TPK's)— 75% 'decorating', Fun

20+ Kyus

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Post #2 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:53 am 
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I understand the categories for the age demographics, but I don't get what you mean by the strength demographics (majesty, etc.).

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Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:25 am 
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Regarding strength demographics, combining fun and health makes— sport! Combining majesty, or prestige if you prefer, with the almost artistic inspiration or 'kung fu' of self improvement through go, and we may have the basis for what we see in athletes that attract us to the competitive element of go even if we are not as strong at go (game commentaries also help!).

So we can similarly group each strength group;

1: Dan players and Single Digit Kyus

2: Double Digit Kyus and Twenty Plus Kyus

Just four, then, rather than 16, areas of focus to expend go promotion efforts.


A1 B1
A2 B2

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Last edited by Elom on Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:38 am 
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Kirby wrote:
I understand the categories for the age demographics, but I don't get what you mean by the strength demographics (majesty, etc.).


Decoration.

For those that are new to the game, introduction in a very direct manner—

'This is go. The queen of all board games.'

May not be so inspiring for the receiver. While I may find it difficult to fathom how anyone's not instantly 'starstruck by the star points', so to speak, an adrenaline junkie may say the same in regards to me towards his or her passions. Maybe much of what interests people to things they do not instantaneously gravitate to may lie, to some degree, in decoration.

Below, I'm referring to the likely mindset and time span of the 'averagely talented' person, whatever it may mean, and even then a chart coming from a naïve 18 year old is not too serious.

20+ kyus (Class D, as they Do know of the game) and 10-19 kyus (Class C, Casual players— Fun.

In other life activities exist greater proportions of beginners, remembering once reading that the go playing population is centre-heavy in the single-digit-kyu bracket like a bi-convex go stone. Well, many people who play sports do so for reasons of harmless enjoyment and health more than trying to improve. But this is not the attitude I've often witnessed in regards to mindsports. In regards to mindsports, the proportion of players who are new to the game and feel some sense of needing to improve seems quite a bit higher. To me, this is good news, because it means we are completely missing the average layperson who would play go seeing it as nothing more than a fun pastime of which they do know the rules, in the case of twenty plus kyus, or a casual activity, in the case of 10-19 kyu (generalisations here). The go population would expand, and beginners interested in improving in this game would not have to play bots, as there would be large number of similarly ranked players who find it fun at their level and feel no need to improve, helping up along those who do. Why should someone 'quit' go completely because they're not improving (reducing time spent on it seems more logical if you find the game fun)?

Maybe, one way to win would be to relate aspects of go that hold true in another field to those within that field. I've heard that a large number of mathematicians play go, but from that I can only concluding that it is mathematicians finding mathematical beauty in go and relating that in some way when they teach go to others— attracting more mathematicians. Indeed, I have seen at least as much if not more similarity to writing or art (try this for you next novels plot strcuture).


10-19 kyus (Class B, hoBby players) and dan players (Class A, Advanced)
Continuing the point of improvement in go and other board games, we possibly see the greatest consequence (benefit?) in this group of players. Slumps. Online-Go-Anxienty (lets put that in the medical books), ranks. A lot in terms of prestige.

But not as much in terms of learning the attitudes employed by professionals. If in the single digit kyu ranks progression becomes much harder, focusing on the prestige of rank rather than the prestige and majesty of the game, along with lessons learned from those that develop the discipline to study the game their entire life, may be what's causing the imbalance for many a player in the game— so if your in a slump, don't just take a break. Take a break and recall the bent fingers of Go Seigen from replaying positions as a child, and you may wonder how you even got to the rank you have. Instead of being happy with your efforts and unhappy with the results, you will be unhappy with your efforts and astounded that you have reached the rank you have. Indeed, if what I have read is anything to go by, getting across the arbitrary dan involves ditching the hacks and holding onto the habits— something others not as anointed with go may appreciate.

Maybe most people, as a gross generalaisation, who play at dan level do not anymore need the '75%', '50%' or even '25%' decoration and relation of the TPK, DDK and SDK levels, but are for sure already anointed with something in the game that would keep them coming back to them no matter what.

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Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Elom wrote:
For those that are new to the game, introduction in a very direct manner—

'This is go. The queen of all board games.'


The goddess of all board games. Fixed that for you. ;)

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Post #6 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:55 am 
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A wonderful work, happening to coincide somewhat with this topic: https://eurogofed.org/index.html?id=206
If things go as they usually do, the fact that I've had a novel idea for five years should mean something similar should come up in Japan, where John Fairbairn related female go is 'booming'.

80/20 (81/19)

Hopefully not to beat a dead horse, but here's a thought experiment for this funny concept.

If the population proportion between each strength demographic was 1/5 per group, how could that be?

7d(2650+); 1

5d&6d; 25

3d&4d; 125

1d&2d; 625

SDK; 3,125

DDK; 15,625

TPK; 78,125

For Twenty Plus Kyus:
The main theme is that of a lighthearted or intriguing nature. 75% associative, i.e. only a quarter of those may consider themselves a 'go player' per se, but do know the rules and can play with any beginner wanting to improve to mighty heights, for example:
-Someone who is interested in the go equipment materials, or, possibly, a collector of antiques
-Someone who is interested in languages and communication, or history
-Someone who is interested in education or brain training
-etc...

For Double Digit Kyus:
The main theme is that of health and self-improvement; you often get as much at this stage out of learning go and developing some anti-misclick discipline or possibly actually reading. 50% associative. You can train for specific aspects of go, solving tsumego above your level to elevate raw visualisation, or speed reading easy problems to train pattern recognition and sharpness, or maybe opt towards the intuitive with whole-board judgement. In other words, it is evolving the focus from styles of play to styles of training. They could be:
-Someone who is interested in education or brain training
-Someone looking for a rewarding pastime
-A puzzlemanic looking for the next big thing

And so it may continue upwards... but I wonder, perhaps, if we are to encourage more beginners and casual players online, we slightly shift the perspective on the servers? Any innocent beginner may wonder online to find a fierce competition of rank going on. Although initially intended to merely serve existing players, what if a go server may act as a passive tool for go proliferation if appropriately devised!

On a similar note, it may not be so easy attempting to spread go outright, or convince other board game players that go is the best board game, making no difference to the boardgame playing population as a whole. However, we might be able to take advantage of our position as a relatively small to medium sized community within the western sphere. Instead focusing on trying to spread go to more people, we set out on specific projects intended to make a balance of population that will increase the go population with minimal effort. This might be harder to do the larger the population is, so it hopefully takes advantage of situations in which there are smaller populations still. In Korea, mothers believed go might help their children improve concentration and cognition. This might be called expansion by osmosis.

If a specific project is set out to achieved, it is much easier for people to tag along in an effort familiar to them, over spreading go, which they wouldn't be able to relate to at first. The EGF article linked above is a fine example. This might be called expansion by assimilation.

This is something that should, I hope apply to all mindsports, who have simlar problems competing with video games, and is dependent moreso, perhaps, on compassion and creativity more than anything else.

Osmisis-If struggling to expand a population, aim to balance the demographic so that the population expands naturally.

Assimilation-Implement a change in society that others can relate to and identify with. You get double the satisfaction!

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Post #7 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:52 am 
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If there are people with heightened levels of loneliness, I don't see why go might not have a chance at helping a little in some cases.

Especially from reviewing peoples games :).

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Post #8 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:11 am 
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Quadrant Go

Maybe some beginners are a little frighted of the 19x19 boards. It is perhaps, in general, better for them to play on a smaller board as beginners, as noted by many.

However, it seems to be possible to simulate 9x9 play on a 19x19 board!

Four players might play with four colours, Red, Green, Blue and Grey. Each player sits on one side of the board. Play moves clockwise. Each player can play in their nearest ten lines of the board. So at any one time: every player can play on tengen, three players can play on each axis emanating thereof, and two players on each 9x9 quarter.

This might be like playing two 9x9 games with someone to your left and right, with the added complexity of them being linked in the middle.

The same rules of go apply; superko might be most appropriate, but a ko is unlikely to occur until the very latter stages of the game due to the number of players. Any stone or group of stones surrounded by stones of a different colour are removed, as in normal go. Being captured by more than a single colour of stones only occurs on the axes.

It might be funny if the player on your opposite side can kibitz on all your moves!

Or nice if it could be a new form of pair go, with team members on the opposite side, as in bridge (and coming to think of it, does 'pair bridge' (one male, one female) exist?).

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Post #9 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:19 am 
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Gardening introduction to go.

Their are 361 sowing points on the field.

Each seed you plant relies on four roots to acquire nutrients from the soil.

If each of the points are occupied by competing plant seeds, competition for resources kills the budding young seed.

Groups of seeds of the same plant variety share the roots with each other. Likewise, they also die if their roots are surround by plants of opposing species.

The goal is to mark out an area of soil for your sustenance. Oh, and don't repeat the same planting pattern shortly after it's appearance— no one accepts such lack of imagination.

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Post #10 Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:22 am 
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The second half of July always feel a little wanting...

Unless you have a Wimbledon International Go Championships! Hail the carrot cakes and cheese, because of the purple and brown colour combination.

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Post #11 Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:53 am 
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I thought his was funny, maybe some will also. It seems the most probable and permanent way a toddler will be introduced to and follow through on something for life, is for both parents (and older siblings) to engage in it enthusiastically to the point of visibility, the toddler told, 'sorry, you're not old enough yet'.

Twaddle about with my games when organising documents/playing tennis/playing go seems so interesting? Dream on.

Unfortunately, for the things we want toddlers to learn, sometimes the opposite, in direct contradiction to the chief influential position example holds in the young brain, is employed, occasionally ending in the opposite result; they stay away as much as possible!


*Is there a difference between go and physical sport in that you need commentary to enjoy the former? I am only able to see, in this regard, the difference historically being, the ability to know the current score, who's ahead and who's not, the majority of people having no way of having any understanding of what is going on in any given game of any given sport. Unless, of course, if they are or have been students of that sport, understanding increasing with competence. In addition, it seems to be the case that a spectator can be invested in a competition, while having a very informal relationship with what's being played (Class D, 'Dabblers'). But commentary's provided for a reason.

In any case, in the future, if AI is stronger and more efficient in energy by factors, multiple AI, on any given game, can give their own opinion on the winning probabilities of each side in any given position, perhaps a truer metric than points (material advantage). Like for every game in an international tournament, concentrating resources and increasing roll-outs in line with higher stages and decreasing games. Ah, instead of competing to be a wider niche within a niche, we can 'compete' with sport, drawing people in not for the results, left to pros, but for the beauty of the game (and wisdom of the people), and with AI, our arch nemesis and most human of friends, allowing that to be possible. Perhaps.

*As mentioned in this talk by Haylee Maas (that you've definitely seen).

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Post #12 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:13 am 
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Go might be quite suitable for older people in various ways. One is that it is not too different from mental mathematics, sudoku or word-search in end-game terms, or painting in that the opening is a creative endeavor requiring subtlety and skill, and thereby we might say it adds, at least potentially, a social aspect to any lone life.


Go gives endless opportunities to muse. Ten’s guide to studying professional games has made me wonder, just a little, on some go terms.

It seems a go game consists of (and of course, but I must mention using such loaded terms, I speculate here):

the Beginning Game (序盤, Jouban)
Phase 1 Opening/Layout (Japanese, '布石-Fuseki')
+
either Phase 2 (Transitory) or Phase 3* (Fighting)

----------

the Middle Game (Japanese '中盤-Chuuban')
either Phase 2 (Transitory) or Phase 3 (Fighting)

----------

the Ending Game (Japanese '終盤-Shuuban')
Phase 4 (Transitory)
+
Phase 5 (Closing/Finishing (Japanese 'ヨセ-Yose'**)

:scratch: seems about right.

*Rather than assign the middle game as stage 3, I treat it as something which may contain stage 3.
**What I have deduced from there, here, and perhaps other places: like other phases, it technically can be played any phase of game, and there are cases in which it's most correct to, but most times, off-phase plays will result in the punishments mentioned in Antti Törmänen 1p's essay.

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Post #13 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:49 am 
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I might think that the perception of go under Chinese rules make go simpler. The Oxford Dictionary defines Go as 'A Japanese board game of territorial possession and capture'. However, if we view the aim of go as making life, with territories purpose being simply to increase it's abundance, rules such as 'play urgent points before big points' come naturally to the beginner directed towards the life-oriented goal, the lesson learned from leaving weak groups to the tigers mouths now interpreted as, 'don't be greedy: make life, if worthwhile, in weak areas first before making it abundant elsewhere!'.

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Post #14 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:53 am 
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I thought go's purpose was to put as many stones on the board as you can and whoever has more, wins.

So in Chinese rules at the end we can just fill in our territory and whoever has to get one of their groups down to one eye loses.

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Post #15 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:08 am 
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This is a "area scoring + group tax" rule, slightly different from the usual area scoring. Take this exemple :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc both players have played the same stone numbers
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


With area scoring, black has 41 points, and white 40, so it's a black win.

But if you force both players to fill :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | B . B . B B B B B |
$$ | B B B B B X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O W W W W |
$$ | . W . W W W W W W |
$$ | W W W W W W W W W |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . B . B B B B B B |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Black can only put 19 more stones inside his territories, while white can put 20 stone : white will win


Basically, each group cost you 2 points compared to the usual area scoring

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Post #16 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:36 am 
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Abyssinica wrote:
I thought go's purpose was to put as many stones on the board as you can and whoever has more, wins.

So in Chinese rules at the end we can just fill in our territory and whoever has to get one of their groups down to one eye loses.


Actually, that's the capture game. :)

Using Tryss's example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Under modern territory scoring, Black has 14 pts. on the top and 9 pts. on the bottom, for 23 pts., and White has 22 pts.; so Black wins by 1 pt.

However, in the capture game neither player wants to play inside the other's territory first and lose that stone, so each player will fill in her own territory. Because of the necessity of two eye points per group, Black has only 12 moves (i.e., points) on the top and 7 moves (points) on the bottom for 19 moves (points) total. White has 20 moves (points); so White is one move (1 pt.) ahead. So White will win, no matter whose turn it is. :)

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #17 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:00 am 
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Anyway, with one rule or the other, the game stays about the same. Beginners think it's a game of life and death. After a while they realize the goal of the game is not to kill the opponent, but to make a bigger territory. And after a while they realize the game is not about making territories, but about life and death.


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Post #18 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:16 am 
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jlt wrote:
Anyway, with one rule or the other, the game stays about the same. Beginners think it's a game of life and death. After a while they realize the goal of the game is not to kill the opponent, but to make a bigger territory. And after a while they realize the game is not about making territories, but about life and death.


The Zen of Go. :) Mountains are mountains. ;)

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Post #19 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:26 am 
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Tryss wrote:
This is a "area scoring + group tax" rule, slightly different from the usual area scoring. Take this exemple :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc both players have played the same stone numbers
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


With area scoring, black has 41 points, and white 40, so it's a black win.

But if you force both players to fill :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | B . B . B B B B B |
$$ | B B B B B X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O W W W W |
$$ | . W . W W W W W W |
$$ | W W W W W W W W W |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . B . B B B B B B |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Black can only put 19 more stones inside his territories, while white can put 20 stone : white will win


Basically, each group cost you 2 points compared to the usual area scoring

Does this mean that group-tax go, which is counting to see who has more stones to determine the winner, becomes modern area scoring if you give two points of komi to each player for every group they have on the board?

Bill Spight wrote:
Abyssinica wrote:
I thought go's purpose was to put as many stones on the board as you can and whoever has more, wins.

So in Chinese rules at the end we can just fill in our territory and whoever has to get one of their groups down to one eye loses.


Actually, that's the capture game. :)

Using Tryss's example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Under modern territory scoring, Black has 14 pts. on the top and 9 pts. on the bottom, for 23 pts., and White has 22 pts.; so Black wins by 1 pt.

However, in the capture game neither player wants to play inside the other's territory first and lose that stone, so each player will fill in her own territory. Because of the necessity of two eye points per group, Black has only 12 moves (i.e., points) on the top and 7 moves (points) on the bottom for 19 moves (points) total. White has 20 moves (points); so White is one move (1 pt.) ahead. So White will win, no matter whose turn it is. :)


Is the capture game in which who loses fewer stones wins? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Random Ramblings
Post #20 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:26 am 
Honinbo

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Elom wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Abyssinica wrote:
I thought go's purpose was to put as many stones on the board as you can and whoever has more, wins.

So in Chinese rules at the end we can just fill in our territory and whoever has to get one of their groups down to one eye loses.


Actually, that's the capture game. :)

Using Tryss's example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Under modern territory scoring, Black has 14 pts. on the top and 9 pts. on the bottom, for 23 pts., and White has 22 pts.; so Black wins by 1 pt.

However, in the capture game neither player wants to play inside the other's territory first and lose that stone, so each player will fill in her own territory. Because of the necessity of two eye points per group, Black has only 12 moves (i.e., points) on the top and 7 moves (points) on the bottom for 19 moves (points) total. White has 20 moves (points); so White is one move (1 pt.) ahead. So White will win, no matter whose turn it is. :)


Is the capture game in which who loses fewer stones wins? :D


No, the winner is the player who first captures one or more stones.

I claim that from the given position White wins, even if White plays first, because White has one more point of territory than Black, with a group tax. Let me show that.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Moves 1 - 10
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 3 5 7 |
$$ | 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | 2 4 6 8 0 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Moves 11 - 20
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 8 6 X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O W W W W |
$$ | W 1 3 5 7 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | B B B B B . 2 4 . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Moves 21 - 30
$$ ---------------------
$$ | 4 . 6 8 0 . . . . |
$$ | . 2 B B B X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O W W W W |
$$ | W W W W W W . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 7 5 3 |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | B B B B B . B B . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Moves 31 - 40
$$ ---------------------
$$ | B . B B B 2 4 6 8 |
$$ | . B B B B X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O W W W W |
$$ | W W W W W W . W . |
$$ | 1 3 5 7 9 W W W W |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | B B B B B . B B 0 |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


I doesn't matter where Black plays :b40:, she is forced to fill an eye and leave one group with only one liberty.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Move 41
$$ ---------------------
$$ | B . B B B B B B B |
$$ | . B B B B X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O W W W W |
$$ | W W W W W W . W . |
$$ | W W W W W W W W W |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | B B B B B 1 B B B |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


OC, the quick way to tell who wins when there are no more dame left (and there is no stone inside the opponent's territory) is to count territory with a group tax.

BTW, the earliest surviving game records with scores apparently used territory scoring with a group tax. :)

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