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Are the avalanches still joseki?
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17066		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  bayu [ Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Are the avalanches still joseki?
I've never noticed the use of an avalanche joseki with which the bots agree. Is there a game? I like the avalanche josekis, so I kind of hope so.

But I also got the impressions that humans play them less than before. Are they out of fashion, simply suboptimal or am I looking at the wrong games? I don't have a strong bot at hand so that I could check for myself.
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Following the influence of AI, the high approach to 3-4 is much rarer now that a few years ago, plus when people high approach and attach under the outside hane is normally the best response, but you do see some avalanche occasionally but rarely the long complicated lines, e.g. Iyama did the solid connect vs Shibano in the Oza a few days ago: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 71#p250771
Author:  columbo [ Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
One other speculative thought to add to Uberdude's observation about the high approach: as I understand the complicated lines, the strategic** reason why the 3-4 player (let's just assume it's black) may prefer them rather than accepting a large solid corner is that, presumably, white chose the avalanche because it's building a wall in the right direction. So, black may not want to passively allow white to get a wall in that particular direction. But--this would need a lot of qualification and nuance, but generally speaking--I think post-AI we're all a little less certain that a wall facing one way as opposed to another is that important. In other words, there may be less avalanche in part because "direction of play" is a fuzzier/less useful concept than we once thought.

**"Strategic" in the strictly board-based sense. There's also the "strategic" psychological aspect--by choosing the complicated large avalanche variations you're saying you're not afraid of and maybe even relish a tough fight, you ain't no pushover, etc. Those messages can be strategic in their own right though in my experience the messaging is less strategic and more instinctive arrogance.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
bayu wrote:
I've never noticed the use of an avalanche joseki with which the bots agree. Is there a game? I like the avalanche josekis, so I kind of hope so.


Sure. I took a quick look and the first avalanche I found was a Takagawa-Sakata game, GoGoD 1950-12-20b. In the Elf commentary Elf prefers the outside hane, but only by 2% over the avalanche, well within the margin of error. OC, we can't expect every joseki variation to meet the bots' approval. :)

In that game, and in some others I have seen, however, White usually prefers to descend to the second line after Black blocks on the third line, instead of playing the 4th line hane (small avalanche) or the third line nobi (large avalanche). Sakata played the nobi, and Takagawa played the 4th line push for the large avalanche. However, Elf does not like the push, preferring the 2d line atari by 5%.

That being the case I doubt if we can consider the large avalanche to be joseki anymore. However, there may well be positions where it is fine. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Here is a game where the small avalanche is joseki.
Author:  sorin [ Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
bayu wrote:
I've never noticed the use of an avalanche joseki with which the bots agree. Is there a game? I like the avalanche josekis, so I kind of hope so.
But I also got the impressions that humans play them less than before.


It doesn't really matter whether "it is joseki or not", probably if you like it you should play it, and try to lead the game into situations where it's more likely for your opponent to play it, but it is still up to your opponent to decide.

As for me, I stopped playing it even before AlphaGo made it come out of fashion with pros, just because it is complicated and I hate complex joseki.
I don't think there is any situation where I would feel that avoiding it will make me fall behind enough to care: if I am "on the inside", I just don't play the hane that starts it (either the small or large avalanche).

It would be interesting to see if any position would make me change my mind :-)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
sorin wrote:
I don't think there is any situation where I would feel that avoiding it will make me fall behind enough to care: if I am "on the inside", I just don't play the hane that starts it (either the small or large avalanche).

It would be interesting to see if any position would make me change my mind :-)


You mean the fourth line hane?

It may not give enough of an advantage to change your mind, but check out the Go Seigen - Maeda game above. At move 28, though, don't take the corner, but play the variation that crawls on the second line. This variation was new to me. I kind of like it. :)
Author:  sorin [ Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Bill Spight wrote:
sorin wrote:
I don't think there is any situation where I would feel that avoiding it will make me fall behind enough to care: if I am "on the inside", I just don't play the hane that starts it (either the small or large avalanche).

It would be interesting to see if any position would make me change my mind :-)


You mean the fourth line hane?

It may not give enough of an advantage to change your mind, but check out the Go Seigen - Maeda game above. At move 28, though, don't take the corner, but play the variation that crawls on the second line. This variation was new to me. I kind of like it. :)


Oh, I mean I would avoid it much earlier, by move 28 it is already way too complicated for me :-)
In this game, I would not play hane with white at 14 (to avoid small avalanche), but connect in 3x3 or crawl on the 3rd line; If I chose to crawl and black would press on 4th line, again I would not hane (to avoid large avalanche too).
Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
nuff said
(Go Seigen and Alpha Go agreed on this move, the matter is closed ;-) )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Gomoto wrote:
nuff said
(Go Seigen and Alpha Go agreed on this move, the matter is closed ;-) )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O W X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(Diagram edit mine.)

Well, this is joseki, OC. But if we allow :wc: instead of a, Then it is likely that the small avalanche hane is also joseki. The large avalanche depends upon White pushing on the 4th line, which may not be joseki, going forword.
Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Bill, while I normally can follow you quite well, I do not get this argument.

This move denies the avalanche, or is there an oversight of mine?

(I think of white as the player who wants to start the avalanche.)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Gomoto wrote:
Bill, while I normally can follow you quite well, I do not get this argument.

This move denies the avalanches, or is there an oversight of mine?


My point has to do with the margin of error, something that we are still a bit uncertain about. :wc: is normally considered to be inferior to the outside hane, but by only a small percentage, almost certainly within the margin of error. So While a bot may make the hane, because why not make its best estimate, :wc: is almost surely playable in most positions, and may be considered joseki. Likewise, even though the bots generally prefer the descent to the small avalanche hane, the percentage difference is normally small, and we may consider the small avalanche to be joseki, as well. The large avalanche, OTOH, depends upon accepting all of three moves as playable: Black's third line nobi, White's fourth line push, and then Black's fourth line hane. That's asking much more, and so I think that the large avalanche will no longer be considered joseki. The most doubtful play of the three is the White push, I think.
Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Thank you, for explaining the argument.
Author:  sorin [ Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Thanks Gomoto for reminding me of one more way to stop the madness early :-)

Gomoto wrote:
nuff said
(Go Seigen and Alpha Go agreed on this move, the matter is closed ;-) )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
You are welcome :-)
Author:  bayu [ Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Thanks for all the answers and game records!

I am happy they are not completely demoted to trick plays.
Author:  Yakago [ Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Also FYI - if you create a situation where 'influency' stuff is happening on the outside and you have the ladder, KataGo will prefer high-approach -> avalanche variation

Image

And then

Image

It will not play the most complicated variations because of the descend to 2nd line that was mentioned earlier. But that's the choice of the player who has the corner.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
Here is another game where we can regard the small avalanche as joseki. :)

GoGoD 1930-03-26j, Takahashi Shigeyuki, 3 dan (W) vs. Inoue Ichiro, 3 dan

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Small avalanche blunder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a X 2 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 O 1 X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 9 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OC, Elf prefers the outside hane at a for :w8:, but Takahashi's play was within the margin of error, IMHO — just barely, losing 4% to par. Somewhat surprisingly, :b11:, the small avalanche hane, is Elf's top choice instead of the descent to 13. The rest of the plays are Elf's top choices until :b17:, a traditional joseki play. Elf prefers the attachment at b. When I was learning go the joseki with :b17: was considered slightly inferior, but the approach to the bottom corner at c would make up for that. Elf, however, thinks that :b17: loses a whopping 19½% to par, which IMHO makes it a blunder.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Minor error
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf also regards :b19: as a minor error, losing 5½% to par. You might find its recommendation interesting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Elf's mainline variation for :b19:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O B B O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 5 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf still likes the attachment. The result is that, while Black does not capture the :wc: stone, White is forced to capture the :bc: stones, and Black ends up with sente. Why didn't the humans come up with this?
Author:  xela [ Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
I always thought that joseki meant something closer to "established pattern" rather than "utterly perfect in every respect". There are GoGoD games from 2019 with the avalanche pattern in it. If some pros are still happy to play it, then I'd say it's still joseki. (Is this a cue for a 30-page thread on translations of the word "joseki", to rival The Great Nakade Debate of 2013?)

For what it's worth, the chess world has had statistics for some decades showing, for example, that the queen's pawn opening has better winning stats than the king's pawn. Yet the king's pawn opening is still very much alive and well in contemporary play, and people are happy to choose a "slightly inferior" move that's a better fit for their playing style or their mood on the day.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are the avalanches still joseki?
xela wrote:
I always thought that joseki meant something closer to "established pattern" rather than "utterly perfect in every respect". There are GoGoD games from 2019 with the avalanche pattern in it. If some pros are still happy to play it, then I'd say it's still joseki. (Is this a cue for a 30-page thread on translations of the word "joseki", to rival The Great Nakade Debate of 2013?)

For what it's worth, the chess world has had statistics for some decades showing, for example, that the queen's pawn opening has better winning stats than the king's pawn. Yet the king's pawn opening is still very much alive and well in contemporary play, and people are happy to choose a "slightly inferior" move that's a better fit for their playing style or their mood on the day.


Starting in the 1990s Go Seigen wrote books and articles about "21st century go". It is as though today's top bots have given us a glimpse of 24th century go, or even later, if there were no AI for go. Overnight, new joseki have appeared on the scene, and some joseki have become obsolete. Nobody plays the old 3-3 invasion of the 4-4, except in special circumstances, for instance. And the press from the 5-3 vs. the 3-4 has become common, either on its own or after a pincer.

What I am attempting to show is that the small avalanche is still joseki, while the large avalanche has become situational. And while the small avalanche may stick around, :b17: in the above note is not just a small error, but a blunder or close to it, and will surely disappear as joseki. Joseki books (assuming they still exist!) of 10 years from now will look a lot different from joseki books today.

Edit: For some perspective, today the early tengen on the 19x19 has to be considered obsolete, even though it is still sometimes played. When I was learning go people said that with komi Black won a tengen opening only about ⅓ of the time. Elf's assessment agrees, giving the early tengen by Black a loss of around 13%. Do we think that a play that loses 20% by Elf's reckoning is going to survive? I have found a Go Seigen game where he makes a mistake (according to Elf) that leads to a large avalanche. Elf estimates the loss from that play at 12%, close to its rating of early tengen. How does the large avalanche survive that level of loss?
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