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 Post subject: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:06 pm 
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Why has no one developped a go mod like this, either as a wooden board or online, yet? Instead of playing on intersections, place stones inside the squares. (Obv for a 19 x 19 board, you would need 19 x 19 squares.) Instantly, counting becomes 30 times easier for everyone involved. 100 Go Professionals Hate This Cheat. Seriously, nobody?!

“If aliens play go, they play inside the squares” - Maharani

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Post #2 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:23 am 
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Traditions run deep. Traditions survive because they either work or there's no rational reason to change them. Personally, counting after rearranging the stones is an endearing part of go's endgame ritual.I would not change it for frivolous reasons, certainly not to make it easier to count or for playing inside the squares, which aren't really squares, you know. There's another tradition with no rational reason to change although folks have tried.

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:38 am 
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It sounds like you are talking about counting during the game, and not after the game is finished. Either way, I don't really see how counting squares is "30 times easier" than counting dots.

People don't like counting because it is mentally taxing. Especially in close tournament games, where you are counting and recounting many times. Dots vs. squares is not an issue, in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:42 am 
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mhlepore wrote:
People don't like counting because it is mentally taxing. Especially in close tournament games, where you are counting and recounting many times.


Why so often? IMHO, I doubt if it does much good to count — and plan — more than 4 times per game, as a rule. OC, when there is a large furikawari you need to reassess, and maybe after a ko fight. Note that I said count and plan. If counting isn't part of making a plan, it is probably a waste of time. As Znosko-Borovsky says, don't be quick to change your plan. Have some confidence in yourself. :) Even at the SDK level, counting after move 200 is probably too late.

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:19 pm 
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First I was skeptical but then I put it to the test. 30 is of course proverbial but it's surprisingly easier to count a table of squares than a table of points. Never occurred to me!


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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:21 pm 
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Further discussion: https://forums.online-go.com/t/visualiz ... -to-count/

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:34 pm 
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Besides which, if you have a board of 19x19 squares, you can play 20x20 go on the intersections. :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:01 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
People don't like counting because it is mentally taxing. Especially in close tournament games, where you are counting and recounting many times.


Why so often? IMHO, I doubt if it does much good to count — and plan — more than 4 times per game...



Because I'm Lee Changho? :-)

Actually, because endgame is hard to me. I believe amateurs lose a lot of won games by thinking they are a few points behind and trying something stupid, when actually good endgame play would grind out a win.

But most importantly, we cannot move to squares because Sorin's website is already named 361points.com.


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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:53 am 
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For many of us who have been playing on the intersections for so long it's hard to imagine not putting the stones anywhere but the intersections, but I think for most people who grew up with chess and checkers, many aspects of the game, not just counting, would have been easier to learn, visualize and understand if the stones were placed in the squares.

In real life, it's quite easy to try out. For computer go, a client that translated squares into intersections would also be fairly trivial. It does however seem to be an utterly moot point because nobody does that.

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:03 am 
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I find that vizualising squares in my head is easier than vizualising intersections.

Attachment:
tetris.png
tetris.png [ 10.19 KiB | Viewed 3957 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:20 am 
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Tetris will never be the same :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:16 pm 
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Supposing it is easier to count the score with squares instead of intersections (seems it is, given the feedback), are there any downsides?

Reading out sequences: better/worse/same
Life and death: better/worse/same
What else???

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #13 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:36 pm 
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mhlepore wrote:
Supposing it is easier to count the score with squares instead of intersections (seems it is, given the feedback), are there any downsides?

Reading out sequences: better/worse/same
Life and death: better/worse/same
What else???

Number of lines visible when the board is full: zero with intersections, all with squares.

What is required to make an unambiguous move: covering an intersection (and it is impossible to cover two) versus covering a significantly greater portion of the intended square than of any other square (more difficult).

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #14 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:00 pm 
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If I use this method, but maintain the same amount of effort, will I be thirty times as precise?


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Post #15 Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:14 pm 
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luigi wrote:
Number of lines visible when the board is full: zero with intersections, all with squares.


I didn't think of that. I agree it's a downside.

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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #16 Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:08 pm 
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I agree that using a 20x20 board and playing in the squares can make counting more visually intuitive for many players but I actually find the uniqueness of the current norm as part of the charm and larger lesson of the game. I have spent a little time actively practicing counting using the lines and also using mentally modified versions of the squares and I think this helps to change the intuitions one comes to the table with and thereby broadens one's horizons, making more creative thought possible. So I wouldn't discourage someone from playing as proposed but I would hesitate doing it to the exclusion of the alternatives. I am reminded of an old study of observing an image of fish. Westerners were more likely to remember details of the large and central fish, while easterners would remember more details of the smaller and peripheral fish. This is of course a generalization and things are always changing, but the intersection thought pattern is one I think is underdeveloped in many westerners.

Regarding visualization techniques: You might also try playing with the board rotated 45°. I feel like this potentially places more visual gravity at the corners and uniquely reflects certain aspects the dynamics at play.


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 Post subject: Re: Visualize go this way, make it 30 times easier to count
Post #17 Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:42 pm 
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Maharani wrote:
luigi wrote:
Number of lines visible when the board is full: zero with intersections, all with squares.


I didn't think of that. I agree it's a downside.


Solution: square stones (with slightly rounded edges) instead of lines? On a physical board you could indicate the lines by carving them out a tiny bit instead of drawing them with ink...

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Post #18 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:15 pm 
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[quote="Maharani"

Solution: square stones (with slightly rounded edges) instead of lines? On a physical board you could indicate the lines by carving them out a tiny bit instead of drawing them with ink...[/quote]

Folks have been playing around with the format of the board and playing pieces for hundreds of years. We seem to have arrived, by consensus, at the existing paradigm. Your proposals have probably been tried and discarded more than once. Easy to pest your theories in modeling applications and you could easily build a set with CNC and 3d printing or adapting playing pieces from other toys.

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Post #19 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:34 am 
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Part of the design of biconvex lens stones seem to scream to be placed on points. Flat pieces seem to want to be placed on squares and monoconvex stones in between.

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Post #20 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:28 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
First I was skeptical but then I put it to the test. 30 is of course proverbial but it's surprisingly easier to count a table of squares than a table of points. Never occurred to me!


Hmm, I haven't been able to notice any difference myself . . . if anything points are still easier for me.

But you probably shouldn't take seriously someone who types in 'grid of lines' and then 'grid of squares' and then thinks, 'oh wait grid of lines should be grid of points!' :lol: what was I thinking.

To be fair, when I started playing go and then learned how it's actually scored, I was astonished that people actually count the score in the game--that should take forever! Numbers tended to look really big to me. So in the last couple of years I started counting the number of birds in the sky whenever a flock appeared, including using multiplication when needed. Given it's dynamic movement it would force my brain to never lose and estimate when necessary. It's go training like a martial arts student. Although recently my brain doesn't quite allow that level of cognition anymore. when I can count pigeons in the sky to the same level as before it would be a good sign. In any case counting was the kind of thing I found hard yet after the bird-counting training for some period of time it improved my counting significantly. I mean, counting a large number in a short time and a dynamically moving population where both exactly the kind of things I was bad at being I'm likely genetically inclined to see numbers as quickly going out of control and thought I could never do and wouldn't have attempted to do if not for go.

In addition, many people after playing go a while see the physical board. Instead I see go concepts and maybe proverbs everywhere socially or strategically. This matches my metaphorical conceptual nature in other things. So there may be a genetic element here too.

In addition to the addition, I find that this seems to activate similar pathways in peoples minds as personality typing systems in terms of a feeling of familiarity, so perhaps there's a genetic element applied in both cases that relates to seeing things in a particular way.

Perhaps because I learnt go around 11, points seems natural, whereas if you've been playing board games inside the squares until you're an adult and then learned go, squares are easier to count. So westerners should have the option when playing online.

If you generalise go to a triangular board you'll be counting the triangles, or for a hexagonal board, the hexagons, although counting the points will be same no matter the polygon. But even then if counting.

Point-countingness and polygon-countingness may be like handedness. Wow these paragraphs ran away unexpectedly.

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