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 Post subject: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:53 am 
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At the pro level, I've heard that teachers in Korea and China are losing out since the dawn of strong AI, as the common method of teaching was to show the student where to play,and the humble student would accept it. But this is not too different from what AI could do. Along with the fact that yeungsoon in Korea and China tend to replay through pro games pretty fast, it seems there's an emphasis on learning by osmosis over understanding. Even pros in Korea and China supposedly had more group-training until at least until the launch of goGoJapan. Traditionally after graduating from inseidom developing one's own style, or perhaps to say it in a maybe more Japanese sensibility of perception, philosophy of playing to some degree.

Which made me wonder--do Japanese go teachers style more similarly to the Chinese and Korean or Americas and Europeans, explaining the meaning behind each move? Is it right to say since strong go AI the west has an advantage over the East when it comes to teaching? Is it right to say that Asian pros who came to the? How temporary might this be?

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:12 am 
Judan

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Teaching with understanding and explanation is an advantage to teaching by example because the former includes the latter. This, however, does not mean that typical Western teachers would be just better than typical Eastern teachers, who also have other qualities: fast LD reading, fast value calculation. AI may have been a wake up call for overcoming too example-focussed teaching but AI does not do wonders other than strong AI play and learning from that as an alternative source of examples.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:30 pm 
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I heavily disagree that the european teachers are superiour by any means,the teachers at least in my experience in China have always excellent ways to explain ais move with tewari or comparing it with well known positions,they force the children to think for themself so much more than in europe that is more focused on fun and joy,its a very big misconception that they only rely on ai and that they play moves they dont understand,its basicly the opposite
I can not figure out any single point that could be better here than there.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:58 pm 
Judan

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Apparently you know the wrong European teachers when you suggest that they would not force the pupils to think for themselves, would emphasise fun, would rely on AI and would play moves that they don't understand. Tewari applies only occasionally so should not be over-emphasised. Your experience in China does, however, suggest that Chinese teaching must have improved greatly compared to what I have seen Chinese professionals explaining at European tournaments.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:18 am 
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I think they might be lost in translation, so they cant express themself as good as they want to,also I believe they threat us more like a customer when they are in europe, i think forcing the student to think is also applied here,but i meant not the same degree and consequence as in for example china.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:37 am 
Judan

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Usually, they speak English or good translation has been provided. Of course, there are occasional cases of language barrier.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:57 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Apparently you know the wrong European teachers when you suggest that they would not force the pupils to think for themselves, would emphasise fun, would rely on AI and would play moves that they don't understand. Tewari applies only occasionally so should not be over-emphasised. Your experience in China does, however, suggest that Chinese teaching must have improved greatly compared to what I have seen Chinese professionals explaining at European tournaments.


After all, everyone has their own goals in the game. Someone learns strategic thinking, and someone does not want to strain, and just gets fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #8 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:22 am 
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Four things are important in order to study go, in no particular order:
-Study theory
-Practice tsumego
-Study pro games
-Play a lot

The impact of AI affects the third point only.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #9 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:53 pm 
Gosei
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Pio2001 wrote:
Four things are important in order to study go, in no particular order:
-Study theory
-Practice tsumego
-Study pro games
-Play a lot

The impact of AI affects the third point only.


Most professionals I heard or saw on the matter highlight 3 activities:

1. play
2. review (preferably with someone else, preferably stronger)
3. tsumego

AI now affects #2

AI also affects the often but not always mentioned "studying pro games"

On topic: in my own reviews, I will always consult AI. The added value of human tutoring at any level is that you can spot patterns in the reviewee's mistakes and suggest a prioritized learning. That can close their mind too. The benefit of a teacher beyond expertise is discipline and motivation, depending on what drives a student.

On the topic of culture in teaching: I know a few things about why the Chinese excel at table tennis. Westerners go there to learn the latest secrets. Not everything translates well in our language or transfers well from teacher's expectations to pupil attitude. We tend to magnify the repetitive aspect of their training and ignore the short but focused explanations that precede it, which carry a lot of attention to detail.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #10 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:54 am 
Judan

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Knotwilg wrote:
Most professionals I heard or saw on the matter highlight 3 activities:

1. play
2. review (preferably with someone else, preferably stronger)
3. tsumego


They also highlight evaluation (positional judgment or endgame calculations) and strategy but often do not explain these well enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #11 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:41 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
Most professionals I heard or saw on the matter highlight 3 activities:

1. play
2. review (preferably with someone else, preferably stronger)
3. tsumego


They also highlight evaluation (positional judgment or endgame calculations) and strategy but often do not explain these well enough.


Yes in Asia they put high emphasize on it and study it separately, its also the funniest difference of skills, an average european player rarely counts (from my experience) and in china it seemed even 1kyu count faster and more accurate than 6dans in europe,its a different world

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:44 am 
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If 1k count better in China than in Europe (seems like a broad generalization, by the way), some other aspect of their play must be worse. Otherwise, they wouldn't be 1k, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #13 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:55 am 
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Kirby wrote:
If 1k count better in China than in Europe (seems like a broad generalization, by the way), some other aspect of their play must be worse. Otherwise, they wouldn't be 1k, right?

The other hypothesis is that counting isn't very important! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #14 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:29 am 
Honinbo

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dfan wrote:
Kirby wrote:
If 1k count better in China than in Europe (seems like a broad generalization, by the way), some other aspect of their play must be worse. Otherwise, they wouldn't be 1k, right?

The other hypothesis is that counting isn't very important! :mrgreen:


Hehe, right.

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #15 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:32 pm 
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Well it depends if one prefers winning more often or not;)

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #16 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
If 1k count better in China than in Europe (seems like a broad generalization, by the way), some other aspect of their play must be worse. Otherwise, they wouldn't be 1k, right?

Absolutely their opening and direction is bad,(compared to european standards) it is generalzaton,but the general idea is true for sure although i have no factual proof,rather experience

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 Post subject: Re: Impact of AI on Pro Study and Teaching Appraoches
Post #17 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:29 am 
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baduk wrote:
Kirby wrote:
If 1k count better in China than in Europe (seems like a broad generalization, by the way), some other aspect of their play must be worse. Otherwise, they wouldn't be 1k, right?

Absolutely their opening and direction is bad,(compared to european standards) it is generalzaton,but the general idea is true for sure although i have no factual proof,rather experience


This increases my suspicion that we shouldn't bother too much on teaching beginners opening theory and just drill them on life and death and endgame puzzles that. Especially considering how openening theory changes, or rather, AI showed that teaching opening theory to beginners is kind of pointless if a third of what they where teaching was half-true or wrong, that time would have been better spent by the beginner doing nothing but tsumego and playing on 13x13.

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