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Malkovich reflections
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=190		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  topazg [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Malkovich reflections
It's here because it's chat, not really Malkovich related :P

One thing I've noticed, and it's probably a sign of weakness in my own play, is Rengo Malkovich is way way way nastier than 1 vs 1. In 1 vs 1, I have a plan, I work it to some level of detail, and then tweak as and if required if variations happen. In Rengo Malkovich, my plans have disappeared every time it has got back to my move, and it's really hard when other playstyles are so different to my own. I tend to rely on developing some form of flow in my game, and I've found it can be very hard to maintain that if your opponent's idea of where the flow's going is "somewhere else" ;)

It's extra hard when partners are not necessarily playing empathetically with regards to followups, and this has been brought home to me with the latest exchange. Don't answer in this thread, because I want to look back after the game, but I have no idea if daniel_the_smith called magicwand's bluff and broke his overplay plan, or possibly played into his hands. Have I played to make the best of a bad situation or blundered? I have to admit, my heart just sank when I saw the double hane, because it screams overplay to me, and that probably meant I went into "ok, I messed up, let's let it go and try for something completely different" mode - either that's a flash of flexible adaptability here, or that's emotional rubbish-play. Either way, Rengo is definitely less like "normal" Go and more like "what's my partner(s) going to do if I do this?" Go.

Not seeing what everyone else is saying is bugging me like hell, especially when other people keep posting hidden comments :D

On that note, I'm also enjoying it and recommend there's another one going at the same time too :)
Author:  unkx80 [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
You remind me of the ongoing WuRenGo game being played on SL. In this game, there are soldiers and there are captains. Soldiers suggest moves and captains choose one to make the actual play. As a captain, I find it difficult to formulate mid to long term plans, because quite often the next move in my plan never gets suggested. As a result, my strategy is to consider one or two moves at a time.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
As a soldier, it's an interesting format, because often someone has already suggested your first instinct move. It helps you to consider moves that you wouldn't otherwise, and then do your best to compare the relative merits of both.
Author:  Magicwand [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
:D
people are complimenting your good move after my blunder. :lol:
it seems that the game is driving you crazy.
but its all for fun. no matter what happens i will enjoy this game.

i would like to say one thing. i will not change my playing style or belief because my teammate might not understand. (although past few moves will confuse the hell out of anyone without reading my hidden) :):):)
after the game we will discuss the results in depth and we will have more fun.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
Magicwand wrote:
:D
people are complimenting your good move after my blunder. :lol:


Haha, why I do not believe you? Paranoid? Me? :lol:

Magicwand wrote:
it seems that the game is driving you crazy.
but its all for fun. no matter what happens i will enjoy this game.

i would like to say one thing. i will not change my playing style or belief because my teammate might not understand. (although past few moves will confuse the hell out of anyone without reading my hidden) :):):)
after the game we will discuss the results in depth and we will have more fun.


Ah, not so crazy really, it's all good fun - but frustrating at times. I bet you are frustrated too, either with me or Daniel ;)

It will be interesting discussing variations afterwards - sort of Hikaru vs Akira style (though obviously we'd be of a much higher standard :D)
Author:  Phelan [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
Magicwand wrote:
after the game we will discuss the results in depth and we will have more fun.


I agree. Seeing how all the plans people were making are conflicting with each other will be interesting. :)

My experience with rengos live, is that this kind of thing always happens, but without the added benefit of seeing it happen step by step.
Author:  fwiffo [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
I think that's the issue with rengo generally. I was playing a rengo on KGS, and a player on my team, a couple stones stronger than me played this move immediately after the familiar joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Too soon!
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O B O . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O .
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------------[/go]


This was less than 20 moves into the game. It was way too soon. After the game I asked about it, and he said "well, I knew it was wrong but I was greedy." I wanted to punch him in the nose. If he knew it was wrong, why did he play it?

I only play rengo if I've been drinking or maybe in a turn-based format. Otherwise I get too serious. Usually if I get angry, it's at the stronger members of my team. It's annoying to clean up after weaker members, sure, but I remember making those same mistakes when I was weaker, and it's a teaching opportunity. But it always seems like the stronger players make strange moves, often not because they're good moves, but because they love screwing around in rengo games. :roll:

I'm too competitive! I never screw around!
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
This is more about rengo than Malkovich Rengo, but I don't really like rengo in general. I like go because I can think for myself. Maybe I have some weaknesses in some areas, but they are my weaknesses, which I can try to work on myself. I like coming up with my own plan.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
Despite my love of go, in other areas I love choosing team boardgames. For videogames I like cooperative, for boardgames I like things like Pandemic, and my favorite card game is spades. The team aspect makes everything a lot more interesting.

I've only ever played a few rengos, and I was always the strongest player involved (Scary, right?). The best one that I ever played in was one in which my partner was about 9 stones weaker than me. At one point the realization dawned on him that if he didn't know what to do, he could burn a ko threat. The opponent's stronger player was after him, so every time he did that, the opponent's weaker player (about 6 stones weaker than me) had to play at least part of a sequence against me. It was an interesting approach. Not really viable in most rengoes, but pretty well chosen for the situation he found himself in.

I really like the idea of rengos, but I imagine it can be frustrating to be constantly surprised and have to reevaluate.
Author:  Jordus [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
For half a second I thought "Malkovich reflections" was something about mirror go...... lol.
Author:  Violence [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
My clubmates and I often play 2v2 rengo to improve, since we're all kinda around the same rank. We've found that it helps flexibility for the stronger player, and reading along with judgment for the weaker one.

What I love about rengo is that it lets me delve into players' minds. Not just my teammates, but my opponents, too. If I can sense that there's a difference in understanding between players on my opponents' side, I can try and use that to my advantage. If I feel that my teammates don't quite understand something, or are confused, I try to spend a move showing them what is important.

A lot of times, a player will make a bad exchange, or mess up in a crucial area, but what's important is to just keep rolling with the punches and think of ways to turn things around. That's what rengo's all about, I feel.
Author:  xed_over [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
Violence wrote:
A lot of times, a player will make a bad exchange, or mess up in a crucial area, but what's important is to just keep rolling with the punches and think of ways to turn things around. That's what rengo's all about, I feel.

Kinda like playing with no undo, even for misclicks :)
Author:  mic [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
xed_over wrote:
Kinda like playing with no undo, even for misclicks :)


I will use this definition for rengo from now on :D

- Mic
Author:  deja [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
Jordus wrote:
For half a second I thought "Malkovich reflections" was something about mirror go...... lol.


Or playing a Malkovich game against yourself, like Malkovich entering his own portal. :?
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
I'm really enjoying the game and can't wait to see what the comments have been. I've been paranoid about some of my moves too (though lately magicwand has been leaving me with few choices)... One in particular I'm extremely curious to see what the dan players thought of... I think I'm reasonably good at figuring out what Violence is trying to do (or maybe I'm horrible at it and everyone will laugh at this) and continuing that, but it's tough when it's your turn and it's time for a strategically important decision.

This has actually been a really good game, it stayed even for quite some time and even now the sides are still close.

I don't think we've been playing the meta-game very strategically.
Author:  fwiffo [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
This last Christmas break my brother, his wife and I were digging through the old board-game closet and pulled out Clue. The last time any of us had played it, we were pretty young and just used brute-force process of elimination. As adults we discovered the meta-gaming aspect and it became a much more interesting game.

We came up with complicated systems for keeping track of all the half-truths and partial information we got from other players guesses. We'd spend turns to move players to an inconvenient part of the board to keep them away from a room they were trying to eliminate. Different kinds of misdirection earned names like "The Total Bastard", "Col. Mustard's Gambit" or "The Scarlet Defense".
Author:  unkx80 [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
Jordus wrote:
˙ןoן ˙˙˙˙˙˙oƃ ɹoɹɹıɯ ʇnoqɐ ƃuıɥʇǝɯos sɐʍ „suoıʇɔǝןɟǝɹ ɥɔıʌoʞןɐɯ„ ʇɥƃnoɥʇ ı puoɔǝs ɐ ɟןɐɥ ɹoɟ

There, fixed.
Author:  Marcus [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Malkovich reflections
unkx80 wrote:
Jordus wrote:
˙ןoן ˙˙˙˙˙˙oƃ ɹoɹɹıɯ ʇnoqɐ ƃuıɥʇǝɯos sɐʍ „suoıʇɔǝןɟǝɹ ɥɔıʌoʞןɐɯ„ ʇɥƃnoɥʇ ı puoɔǝs ɐ ɟןɐɥ ɹoɟ

There, fixed.


That ... is kinda cool. :)
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