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 Post subject: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #1 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm 
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There are a couple of really basic pages on SL referencing teaching games, but I thought I'd ask you guys.

As you can see from my sig, I'm not a very strong player (only recently made it into the SDK level). I definitely have a lot of learning to do, but I also want to be able to help teach people, especially in teaching games.

The main reason I bring this up is because I'd like to do a better job at helping out/teaching my girlfriend. The last few times we played, I've given her 13 stones and been able to beat her (this is usually close, and comes down to me getting a little lucky and saving a big group by killing another). She's been improving, though, and I don't think I'd want to give her more than 9 (and would really like to help get her past that point).

So what do you guys think? What are your big suggestions, tips, etc.?

Big things I'm wondering are if you prefer low handicap, no handicap, or normal handicap. Review a lot during the game? Just after? What has worked for you?

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Post #2 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Usually I'd say play the appropriate handicap. If you win at 13, play at 13. If she wins, reduce the handicap.
However, 13 seems like a lot. I think most people don't play over 9 handicap.
If you need that much, maybe it's best to reduce the board size. What board size are you playing?

As for the method during the game, it depends very much on the person. Some don't like you reviewing during the game, some like it.
I'd suggest reviewing only after as default. If you do, take care to point out good moves the student makes.

I also like something that Bill Spight did often in GD: Just point out one or two major mistakes, and nothing more. If possible, counterbalance this with pointing one or two very good moves.

As for your play itself, try to avoid huge fights where you're not quite certain of the result before you start. Try to base your play on the strategic and tactical principles you've learned.

(I just wanted to give a few tips, but got all the above out... Sorry if it's too much and/or wrong)
It may be hard taking all this into account while you play, but if you try, you'll teach better, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #3 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:05 pm 
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schultz wrote:
I've given her 13 stones and been able to beat her (this is usually close, and comes down to me getting a little lucky and saving a big group by killing another). She's been improving, though, and I don't think I'd want to give her more than 9 (and would really like to help get her past that point).

So what do you guys think? What are your big suggestions, tips, etc.?

You should think about playing Atari Go on a smaller board. Count off 9x9 lines in the corner and focus your play there. The first one to capture a stone wins. After she has won a few games, go to the first person to capture two stones wins. Eventually, you will fill the (9x9) board without someone winning. At that point, you are playing Go. Continue on the 9x9 board until she is ready for 13x13 and eventually 19x19.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #4 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:57 pm 
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One thing that I like doing is treating it as a challenge for yourself. Keep the score as even as possible. It's actually great practice for me to read. Instead of competing, treat the game casually and let her ask questions and take back moves. In the early game, suggest her find the biggest open area and take as much of it as she can with a single stone. In the midgame, tell her to first make sure that her groups are healthy, then look and separate any weak stones you might have, then try to expand your territory a bit. In the endgame, tell her to look for weak spots in the boundary between territories, and push your wall back a little.

The only risk of playing a teaching game like this is that your opponent will get competetive and mad at 'letting' them win or taking it easy on them. So I let my opponent choose between a teaching game and a handicap (serious) game, and suggest alternating between the two.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #5 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:42 pm 
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Here are my "golden rules" for playing against DDK, beginner players.

1. Do not "let" them win, but do your best to keep the game within one or two points.
2. Try to maximize the presence of interesting "problems" that are at their level.
3. Don't talk during the game. Don't suggest why a move they made was bad, or explain why you're making moves yourself.
4. At the end of the game, give one piece of advice (a proverb, or a shape lesson, etc).
5. Play quickly, and encourage them to do the same (unless they're actually reading, which you may encourage them to do out loud, "if I move there, then you'll move there"-style).

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #6 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:46 pm 
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The biggest lesson I've learned when it comes to teaching games is to make sure you don't give the beginner an overload of information. Keep it casual, simple, and interactive. I also think it's helpful that you go over the basics to make sure that you understand concepts well enough to explain - I don't mean this in a condescending way; on GD I made a thread for instance on how to explain the concept of 1 eye to a beginner in a clean and precise way, a concept that even a 30k knows! As Einstein used to say, "If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #7 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:51 am 
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ross wrote:
Here are my "golden rules" for playing against DDK, beginner players.

1. Do not "let" them win, but do your best to keep the game within one or two points.
2. Try to maximize the presence of interesting "problems" that are at their level.
3. Don't talk during the game. Don't suggest why a move they made was bad, or explain why you're making moves yourself.
4. At the end of the game, give one piece of advice (a proverb, or a shape lesson, etc).
5. Play quickly, and encourage them to do the same (unless they're actually reading, which you may encourage them to do out loud, "if I move there, then you'll move there"-style).

Great advice, exactly what I try to do...

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #8 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:00 am 
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ross wrote:
3. Don't talk during the game. Don't suggest why a move they made was bad, or explain why you're making moves yourself.

I disagree slightly with Ross here. It depends on what kind of game you're playing, teaching or serious. I think talking, explaining, even allowing take-backs are ok in teaching games --- but even then it has to be a certain type of teaching game. You have to judge how well your student is catching on. But as Araban says, don't overload. Keep it simple. Maybe one or two concepts at a time.

After a game with explaining, then have a game with no talking -- let the stones do the talking.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #9 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:09 am 
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xed_over wrote:
I disagree slightly with Ross here. It depends on what kind of game you're playing, teaching or serious. I think talking, explaining, even allowing take-backs are ok in teaching games --- but even then it has to be a certain type of teaching game. You have to judge how well your student is catching on.

I've tried it both ways, and I still stick to my rule. I find that the biggest difficulty with beginning players is getting them to feel the flow of the game--they get analysis overload and get stuck at every move trying to think of all the possibilities. You can't play Go like that--you have to play hundreds if not thousands of games to build up patterns in your brain of what moves make "sense" before you begin to prune the tree of possibilities. That (IMO) should be what we're trying to encourage in beginners, and at least in my experience, talking and explaining during the game is more counterproductive than it's worth in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #10 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:22 am 
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xed_over wrote:
ross wrote:
3. Don't talk during the game. Don't suggest why a move they made was bad, or explain why you're making moves yourself.

I disagree slightly with Ross here. It depends on what kind of game you're playing, teaching or serious. I think talking, explaining, even allowing take-backs are ok in teaching games --- but even then it has to be a certain type of teaching game. You have to judge how well your student is catching on. But as Araban says, don't overload. Keep it simple. Maybe one or two concepts at a time.

After a game with explaining, then have a game with no talking -- let the stones do the talking.

You are making a distinction not relevant to Ross's rules which are explicitly for a beginner. As they get more experienced, your distinction starts to take effect, i.e. some people will do well with more explanation and discussion. I am amazed at how appropriate the rules Ross expressed work for even up into the single digit kyu level.

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Post #11 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:31 pm 
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mdobbins wrote:
I am amazed at how appropriate the rules Ross expressed work for even up into the single digit kyu level.

sure, I'm speaking only for true beginners, and some DDK's

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Post #12 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:37 pm 
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ross wrote:
Here are my "golden rules" for playing against DDK, beginner players.

1. Do not "let" them win, but do your best to keep the game within one or two points.
2. Try to maximize the presence of interesting "problems" that are at their level.
3. Don't talk during the game. Don't suggest why a move they made was bad, or explain why you're making moves yourself.
4. At the end of the game, give one piece of advice (a proverb, or a shape lesson, etc).
5. Play quickly, and encourage them to do the same (unless they're actually reading, which you may encourage them to do out loud, "if I move there, then you'll move there"-style).

Thanks ross. This is a really good list and I'll have to keep this in mind when I'm teaching. Another question, though. For number 2, you recommend maximizing the interesting "problems" at their level. Curious if you could expand on this a little bit (maybe others have input as well)? I can think of some obvious ones, like edge-play (though I think my girlfriend is a little past this sort of thing...hopefully ;)). Also on that thread, would you recommend making simple edge-play mistakes yourself (or other mistakes) to see if they catch them? Or wait for them to make the mistakes and punish them (does do a good job of hammering the point home -- as long as it doesn't upset them).

Araban wrote:
The biggest lesson I've learned when it comes to teaching games is to make sure you don't give the beginner an overload of information. Keep it casual, simple, and interactive. I also think it's helpful that you go over the basics to make sure that you understand concepts well enough to explain - I don't mean this in a condescending way; on GD I made a thread for instance on how to explain the concept of 1 eye to a beginner in a clean and precise way, a concept that even a 30k knows! As Einstein used to say, "If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."

This is some thing I constantly have to remind myself when I'm teaching someone. I have a tendency to try and teach everything I know all at once. All it does is drown them in details which they'll now remember none of.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far everyone.

Edit - for teh grammar

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Post #13 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:53 pm 
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schultz wrote:
Another question, though. For number 2, you recommend maximizing the interesting "problems" at their level. Curious if you could expand on this a little bit (maybe others have input as well)?

It's not a matter of making purposeful mistakes--you should never do that even in a teaching game, in my opinion (although I might quibble about "slight inefficiencies"). I'll try to give an example of what I mean.

At the very beginning level, it's simply continuing patterns of play that at a higher level wouldn't be continued. For example, Straight Four In The Corner (or Twisted Four) may arise in the game naturally. If you take one of the points inside, your beginner opponent may have to think to determine the status of the group and where to play. For an opponent of your own level, this move would have been a waste of time and instantly answered, but it can provide valuable reading practice for a beginner who has not encountered this shape endless times. Yet your move was not a "mistake" (unless technically there were bigger moves elsewhere and your opponent ought to ignore your threat to kill the group), but at the same time it is "maximizing problems that are at their level".

At a more advanced level (both for yourself and your student), it becomes an issue of deciding which path to take where several will do (and in this case I grant that inefficiences may arise, but nothing a kyu player would call a "mistake"). For example, you may choose a local variation that includes a ladder rather than a different way of playing, because you want to test your opponent's ability to read the ladder (and suitably punish him if he falls short). Or you may choose an attack that is best defended by a hanging connection rather than a solid one, to ensure that your opponent is appropriately familiar with such connections (and punish him if he falls short). Or you may notice that they continually push from behind, and you make moves that take advantage of this tendency. If the same mistake is repeated again and again throughout the game without the student gaining the "aha!" moment on their own, that can be used as the #4 lesson at the end of the game (and hopefully they will remember seeing that pattern enough times in the game that they will connect it in their minds).

To do this well, I think one must not only be very skilled at Go, but also very skilled at this particular art. I know I can only do it at a very shallow level of what's possible, providing good fodder for 20kyus at best. Perhaps it requires a dan-level player to "lead" 15kyus into "interesting problems at their level"--and not just any player at that level, but one who is particularly good at this skill as well.

I will say that trying to practice it makes for much more interesting games against beginners than otherwise someone at a huge rank difference would otherwise get. If it benefits the beginner as well, then it's win-win all around.

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Post #14 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:56 am 
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ross wrote:
schultz wrote:
Another question, though. For number 2, you recommend maximizing the interesting "problems" at their level. Curious if you could expand on this a little bit (maybe others have input as well)?

It's not a matter of making purposeful mistakes--you should never do that even in a teaching game, in my opinion (although I might quibble about "slight inefficiencies"). I'll try to give an example of what I mean.

At the very beginning level, it's simply continuing patterns of play that at a higher level wouldn't be continued. For example, Straight Four In The Corner (or Twisted Four) may arise in the game naturally. If you take one of the points inside, your beginner opponent may have to think to determine the status of the group and where to play. For an opponent of your own level, this move would have been a waste of time and instantly answered, but it can provide valuable reading practice for a beginner who has not encountered this shape endless times. Yet your move was not a "mistake" (unless technically there were bigger moves elsewhere and your opponent ought to ignore your threat to kill the group), but at the same time it is "maximizing problems that are at their level".

At a more advanced level (both for yourself and your student), it becomes an issue of deciding which path to take where several will do (and in this case I grant that inefficiences may arise, but nothing a kyu player would call a "mistake"). For example, you may choose a local variation that includes a ladder rather than a different way of playing, because you want to test your opponent's ability to read the ladder (and suitably punish him if he falls short). Or you may choose an attack that is best defended by a hanging connection rather than a solid one, to ensure that your opponent is appropriately familiar with such connections (and punish him if he falls short). Or you may notice that they continually push from behind, and you make moves that take advantage of this tendency. If the same mistake is repeated again and again throughout the game without the student gaining the "aha!" moment on their own, that can be used as the #4 lesson at the end of the game (and hopefully they will remember seeing that pattern enough times in the game that they will connect it in their minds).

To do this well, I think one must not only be very skilled at Go, but also very skilled at this particular art. I know I can only do it at a very shallow level of what's possible, providing good fodder for 20kyus at best. Perhaps it requires a dan-level player to "lead" 15kyus into "interesting problems at their level"--and not just any player at that level, but one who is particularly good at this skill as well.

I will say that trying to practice it makes for much more interesting games against beginners than otherwise someone at a huge rank difference would otherwise get. If it benefits the beginner as well, then it's win-win all around.

Thanks for all the info. That makes a lot of sense. And they say the best way to learn is to teach some one else. ;) Guess I better get to teaching!

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #15 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:46 am 
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This mostly applies online, but it can happen in person too:

The only recommendation I have is regarding something I've seen happen way too many times.. Please do not win by review if you ever happen to lose to anyone you are teaching. Accept the loss, review the main key points that looked awkward for your opponent(mainly review the idea behind their moves contradicting their moves played. Ask them why), and possibly review your biggest overplays(not every slight one). Honestly, though, do not overload your student. Nothing good comes from feeding people too much information at once.

There's also another one, when you start teaching people, you fall into a teacher role more and more often. If you see someone else conducting a review, don't back-seat teach or interrupt someone else's review of a game that you think is not good enough. If you feel it is extremely important then possibly point it out, otherwise enjoy. :) Everyone has different styles of teaching. There is absolutely no reason to try to upstage another reviewer.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Games - Anybody have tips and tricks?
Post #16 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:29 am 
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ketchup wrote:
This mostly applies online, but it can happen in person too:

The only recommendation I have is regarding something I've seen happen way too many times.. Please do not win by review if you ever happen to lose to anyone you are teaching. Accept the loss, review the main key points that looked awkward for your opponent(mainly review the idea behind their moves contradicting their moves played. Ask them why), and possibly review your biggest overplays(not every slight one). Honestly, though, do not overload your student. Nothing good comes from feeding people too much information at once.

There's also another one, when you start teaching people, you fall into a teacher role more and more often. If you see someone else conducting a review, don't back-seat teach or interrupt someone else's review of a game that you think is not good enough. If you feel it is extremely important then possibly point it out, otherwise enjoy. :) Everyone has different styles of teaching. There is absolutely no reason to try to upstage another reviewer.


I have had this happen in public places, like between rounds at a tournament.

Another point to remember when backseat teaching is that the teacher may already know the student better than you and may know better what the student needs at the moment. While you may be right in your point, it may be more of a distraction to the student teacher relationship.

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Post #17 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:08 pm 
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I really like ross' list. +1

You never answered my question, though. What board size are you playing?
I've found that getting beginners to start on small boards helps them get more games(and therefore more patterns) under their belt.

I've been trying to get people I've just taught the rules to start on a 5x5, and play out several games till the end, only correcting them when they do illegal plays. The reaction seems good. It doesn't tire them as much as playing out a 9x9, and they seem to improve almost every game.

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Post #18 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:27 pm 
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Phelan wrote:
I really like ross' list. +1

You never answered my question, though. What board size are you playing?
I've found that getting beginners to start on small boards helps them get more games(and therefore more patterns) under their belt.

I've been trying to get people I've just taught the rules to start on a 5x5, and play out several games till the end, only correcting them when they do illegal plays. The reaction seems good. It doesn't tire them as much as playing out a 9x9, and they seem to improve almost every game.

Heh, didn't mean to skip your question. Been playing on the 19x19 (it really has been a while), but I'm thinking it's going to be a lot better to switch down a size (or two) for a while. I'll have to talk with her and see what she's comfortable with, but I think a 5x5 at this point would be a little small. Meh, I'll ask and see what she says. ;)

And I know about backseat teaching. I haven't even done this very many times, and had plenty of my friends that happen to be there start to jump in with suggestions (especially great when we end up talking about personal variances/techniques/play styles). Hooray for information overload :roll:.

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Post #19 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:54 pm 
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schultz wrote:
but I think a 5x5 at this point would be a little small.

you'd be surprised at what you can learn on a 5x5. When I first started using that size to teach, I think I learned more than my student.

But I usually only do capture go on sizes smaller than 9x9. And I find it usually doesn't take more than a couple games on 5x5 before going to 7x7. Then maybe a few more before 9x9. Depends on how fast they are catching on.

Remember, no information overload. But also, don't worry about dwelling on any one concept too long either. After a while, if they're not getting it, move on. They'll get it eventually. Sometimes the next concepts will help teach and reinforce the earlier ones anyway.

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