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 Post subject: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective
Post #1 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:58 am 
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A player wishing to abide by the anti-doping regulations in particular needs to do the following:

1) Find out which are the currently valid rules and lists. My guess is that for Go players https://intergofed.org/about-the-igf/anti-doping.html states them. But how can the player be sure? Is this really the relevant page? Is it always updated timely? Is downloading the files from there and storing them locally sufficient evidence in any later trial? How can the player prove such in court?! What happens in case of typos in those files and possible uploads of corrections unnoticed by the player? Why does the player have to notice on his own initiative that there are new lists of substances in 2010?

2) Understand many specialized English medical terms.

3) When buying food or getting medication, verify that no prohibited substance occurs. Especially medication is a great problem. The doctor prescribes something, then the player reads through the list of substances in the medication in normally his own language, then he might have a chance to notice whether there could be some prohibited substance, provided the player does understand the medical terms.

4) Possibly getting the doctor's signature on a Therapeutic Use Exemption. But when? When the doctor intends to prescribe medication? If yes, then apparently the player must bring the doctor to reading the lists of substances and compare them with the medication's substances. If no, then at what time before a tournament with doping tests must the player get the signature? Realistically, it might be hard to get a signature later. Therefore the player should better bother the doctor with all the anti-doping stuff before he specifies any medication. In most cases just for the purpose of finding out that there is no conflict and thus no need to sign a TUE.

Conclusion: It can be very tough for players to abide by anti-doping lists and very easy to make unintentional mistakes (like not understanding terms in the lists of prohibited substances or like failing to notice a changed list of prohibited substances in time). Even a very cooperative player is always faced with the danger of making unintentional mistakes. The current system of anti-doping does not increase fairness but sooner or later is bound to create victims among the players, players who fall into some trap of making unintentional mistakes.

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Post #2 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:11 am 
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I agree with the conclusion. Also, every effort should be made to resist the increasing arrogation of power by essentially unelected bodies like the IOC, FIFA and, yes, the IGF.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective
Post #3 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:48 am 
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I'm guessing here, but I would assume that the lists of proscribed substances are given as the names of molecules, not brand names. In such case, there's no question of language issues preventing identification. If you take the list that concerns you to your doctor, he can ensure that he's not giving you something that you shouldn't be taking.

Robert, I understand that this whole thing bothers you, and in many ways I agree that it shouldn't affect go players. But there are probably _millions_ of athletes in the world who deal with this without the problems you are claiming. I think they manage, and if you're really concerned, you should get in touch with an athletic association in your country to find out how they do so.

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Post #4 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:31 am 
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In other sports, athletes have (I hope) well establised organization structures around them helping them with doping matters. In Go, all such structures still need to be formed. Currently players are too often left alone with their procedural anti-doping questions, it seems.

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Post #5 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:39 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
In other sports, athletes have (I hope) well establised organization structures around them helping them with doping matters. In Go, all such structures still need to be formed. Currently players are too often left alone with their procedural anti-doping questions, it seems.


So put pressure on the go organizations that are imposing this. Don't complain about things that are really not that difficult to deal with.

Gee, it didn't take me three seconds to find the master Prohibited List on the World Anti-Doping Agency's web site:

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/World-Anti-D ... ited-List/

I'm actually surprised that the list is so short.

And I found this statement:

"The updated List is published by October 1 and comes into effect on January 1 the following year."

So your comments about not knowing when it's updated...

Sorry, Robert, you're a smart guy, and you're acting, about this issue, like you're not. The information is really not hard to find.

(Again, I do agree that this is ridiculous for go players, but that's another subject...)

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Post #6 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:50 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
In other sports, athletes have (I hope) well establised organization structures around them helping them with doping matters. In Go, all such structures still need to be formed. Currently players are too often left alone with their procedural anti-doping questions, it seems.


It is also a worry that "bobo's" (bobo = a bit perj. term for influential, administrative persons in sport organizations [+ wrong use of apostrophe])
will/do already show up in Go.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
EDIT: Kirk, JR knew the lists and the PDF with the 2 monitored substance classes,
as it is referenced clearly by himself in the thread starter.
It seems more a whining statement to me 'oh, the (Go?) World is soo bad. Where is the saviour?'

I do not subscribe the whining aspect. If you do drink a cup of (whatever) too much ... so be it!
It's about the intrinsic joy of the game itself.

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Last edited by Tommie on Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective
Post #7 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:55 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
A player wishing to abide by the anti-doping regulations in particular needs to do the following:

1) Find out which are the currently valid rules and lists. My guess is that for Go players https://intergofed.org/about-the-igf/anti-doping.html states them. But how can the player be sure? Is this really the relevant page? Is it always updated timely? Is downloading the files from there and storing them locally sufficient evidence in any later trial? How can the player prove such in court?! What happens in case of typos in those files and possible uploads of corrections unnoticed by the player? Why does the player have to notice on his own initiative that there are new lists of substances in 2010?

2) Understand many specialized English medical terms.

3) When buying food or getting medication, verify that no prohibited substance occurs. Especially medication is a great problem. The doctor prescribes something, then the player reads through the list of substances in the medication in normally his own language, then he might have a chance to notice whether there could be some prohibited substance, provided the player does understand the medical terms.

4) Possibly getting the doctor's signature on a Therapeutic Use Exemption. But when? When the doctor intends to prescribe medication? If yes, then apparently the player must bring the doctor to reading the lists of substances and compare them with the medication's substances. If no, then at what time before a tournament with doping tests must the player get the signature? Realistically, it might be hard to get a signature later. Therefore the player should better bother the doctor with all the anti-doping stuff before he specifies any medication. In most cases just for the purpose of finding out that there is no conflict and thus no need to sign a TUE.

Conclusion: It can be very tough for players to abide by anti-doping lists and very easy to make unintentional mistakes (like not understanding terms in the lists of prohibited substances or like failing to notice a changed list of prohibited substances in time). Even a very cooperative player is always faced with the danger of making unintentional mistakes. The current system of anti-doping does not increase fairness but sooner or later is bound to create victims among the players, players who fall into some trap of making unintentional mistakes.


Oh, is something actually prohibited? I lost track of this debate a while back, when the point was still being made that we haven't found anything that makes us better at Go yet ;)

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Post #8 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:03 am 
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amnal wrote:
Oh, is something actually prohibited?
(...)
the point was still being made that we haven't found anything that makes us better at Go yet ;)


A good nap before a tournament day, moments of meditation, concentration before a game are not on the list :D

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective
Post #9 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:04 am 
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kirkmc wrote:
So put pressure on the go organizations that are imposing this.


Of course.

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Don't complain about things that are really not that difficult to deal with.


By my own experience, it is very difficult. E.g., from the name of a substance, I cannot easily know if it belongs to a class of prohibited substances with a different name.

Quote:
Gee, it didn't take me three seconds to find the master Prohibited List on the World Anti-Doping Agency's web site:

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/World-Anti-D ... ited-List/


Now, how do you know that this is the valid list for Go players? E.g., you can't just take the IGF Anti-Doping Regulations but also need to know the verbal gentleman's agreement around it. You won't find that at WADA's webpage.

Quote:
Sorry, Robert, you're a smart guy, and you're acting, about this issue, like you're not. The information is really not hard to find.


It is easy to find something but very difficult to verify that it is the right thing and to get an official confirmation that might help the player in court to prove validity of such documents.

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Post #10 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:13 am 
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I wonder what effect Noo-tropics and stimulants like those in the amphetamine family would have on go playing ability. I doubt one could really play above their natural ability, but it would probably decrease variable factors, like amount of sleep or mild sickness.

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Post #11 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:36 am 
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By my own experience, it is very difficult. E.g., from the name of a substance, I cannot easily know if it belongs to a class of prohibited substances with a different name.


Bull***t. The names on the list are the names of the molecules. There are no other names, other than brand names, which are not included on the list for that very reason. Any medication you get, even if it is sold under a brand name (ie, not a generic), will have that name on its packaging as well. And that list is so short that anyone can look at it and determine whether a medication is permitted or not. As I said earlier, millions of athletes - many who have IQs far lower than you - manage to deal with this.

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Now, how do you know that this is the valid list for Go players? E.g., you can't just take the IGF Anti-Doping Regulations but also need to know the verbal gentleman's agreement around it. You won't find that at WADA's webpage.


I think it's safe to assume that the WADA list is the master list, and no other list would be more restrictive.

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Post #12 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:56 am 
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amnal wrote:
Oh, is something actually prohibited? I lost track of this debate a while back, when the point was still being made that we haven't found anything that makes us better at Go yet ;)


Ideally, doping would be defined per sport as something that enhances performance in that sport while damaging the health of the player. With a requirement that the performance enhancement be proven statistically significant in a controlled scientific experiment.

I think the resulting list for go would either be empty, or at least be quite short :)

But then, where do you find the volunteers for such experiments, to take a potentially damaging drug in order to prove something is doping :)

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Post #13 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:01 am 
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kirkmc wrote:
The names on the list are the names of the molecules. There are no other names, other than brand names, which are not included on the list for that very reason. Any medication you get, even if it is sold under a brand name (ie, not a generic), will have that name on its packaging as well. And that list is so short that anyone can look at it and determine whether a medication is permitted or not.


Typical drugs have only the core substance stated on their boxes. (Is this so also in under-developed countries?) Never have I seen a doctor who would tell you the list of substances but now one must ask him to explain the list before a prescription, it seems.

Also it is not as simple as you suggest. You don't just find the same molecule names everywhere but some lists have general names of molecule classes while other lists have very specialized names. If the player is lucky, then the first few syllabies of such names are identical. But is this always so?

(In case of an accident, a player might be given drugs while he cannot even point out that he is supposed to abide by anti-doping lists.)

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I think it's safe to assume that the WADA list is the master list, and no other list would be more restrictive.


The question is not how restrictive a list is but whether it is the list that does apply to Go players and how a player can prove this assumed fact at court.

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Post #14 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:47 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:

Typical drugs have only the core substance stated on their boxes. (Is this so also in under-developed countries?) Never have I seen a doctor who would tell you the list of substances but now one must ask him to explain the list before a prescription, it seems.

Also it is not as simple as you suggest. You don't just find the same molecule names everywhere but some lists have general names of molecule classes while other lists have very specialized names. If the player is lucky, then the first few syllabies of such names are identical. But is this always so?

(In case of an accident, a player might be given drugs while he cannot even point out that he is supposed to abide by anti-doping lists.)


Hmm, I think you're misunderstanding something about drugs. Very, very few drugs contain more than one active ingredient. (They all contain excipients, but they have no effect, other than potential allergies.) All drugs sold anywhere - legally, of course, not under-the-counter in third-world countries) have the contents on the package, with the active ingredient clearly specified. All generic drugs are sold by the name of the active ingredient. I'm guessing perhaps that you don't take any medications, but if you did, you would see this very clearly.

The WADA list contains classes, then the names of molecules (and, in some cases, metabolites, things that original molecules break down into, which are tested for, but which are not available as medications in that form), and, in some cases, classes that are entirely forbidden. (For example, S4. HORMONE ANTAGONISTS AND MODULATORS.)

As I said earlier, you take this list to your doctor, and they will have no trouble knowing whether the med you're taking is on the list. Also, they all use computerized databases of drugs now, and I would bet that their databases include information on whether the medication is forbidden for athletic use.

Once again, millions of people follow this with no problem. A doctor can help you much more than anyone here. (Though we may have some doctors here who might want to chime in.)

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Post #15 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:13 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
A player wishing to abide by the anti-doping regulations in particular needs to do the following:


You're even more tedious than usual today. If you have concerns, print out the prohibited list and ask your doctor or pharmacist at the time the drug is prescribed and/or purchased.

The rest is just you being deliberately obtuse.

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Post #16 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:43 am 
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kirkmc wrote:
you would see this very clearly.


I don't; I cannot distinguish between effective and harmless substances in medicine because almost always both have names I do not know.

Quote:
Once again, millions of people follow this with no problem.


Really? How do you know? I have never heard any positive or negative report. Where have you gotten your millions of reports from?

Quote:
A doctor can help you much more than anyone here.


I think suggestions like you give (show the list to the doctor) and other suggestions (never again visit a doctor without carrying the current list with you) should be given as FAQ information to the players.

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Post #17 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:52 am 
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pwaldron wrote:
If you have concerns, print out the prohibited list and ask your doctor or pharmacist at the time the drug is prescribed and/or purchased.


It is something one needs to learn as a (strong) Go player.

Quote:
The rest is just you being deliberately obtuse.


Sorry, but you know how doping trials work: You are going to having to prove anything you claim. The current situation of nebulous, hardly announced and even partially incomplete status of anti-doping rules documents and their changes puts the players in much greater than necessary danger. Only if we demand complete, precise and timely information, players will have a realistic chance to prove not being guilty.

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Post #18 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:08 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
kirkmc wrote:
you would see this very clearly.


I don't; I cannot distinguish between effective and harmless substances in medicine because almost always both have names I do not know.

Quote:
Once again, millions of people follow this with no problem.


Really? How do you know? I have never heard any positive or negative report. Where have you gotten your millions of reports from?

Quote:
A doctor can help you much more than anyone here.


I think suggestions like you give (show the list to the doctor) and other suggestions (never again visit a doctor without carrying the current list with you) should be given as FAQ information to the players.


Robert, you can read _words_, correct? The names on the list are words; the names on a box of meds are words. You find the med you have, then you search in the list. As it's a PDF, you don't even have to read it; just type correctly.

As for millions, yes, there are millions of athletes who are affected by this. I've never heard any scandal about them not being able to print out a 9-page list and take it to their doctor. Frankly, such a suggestion doesn't need to be in a FAQ; it's common sense.

I'm getting the impression now that you're just trolling...

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Post #19 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:09 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
pwaldron wrote:
If you have concerns, print out the prohibited list and ask your doctor or pharmacist at the time the drug is prescribed and/or purchased.


It is something one needs to learn as a (strong) Go player.

Quote:
The rest is just you being deliberately obtuse.


Sorry, but you know how doping trials work: You are going to having to prove anything you claim. The current situation of nebulous, hardly announced and even partially incomplete status of anti-doping rules documents and their changes puts the players in much greater than necessary danger. Only if we demand complete, precise and timely information, players will have a realistic chance to prove not being guilty.


It's very clear from the WADA web site that the list of drugs is updated once a year, so I don't see this as being "nebulous" regarding such a list. As for how things are tested, that changes, but that's not really your problem.

Also, the document IGF Anti-Doping Regulations on the page you link to seems quite complete. So what's your gripe?

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Post #20 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:34 am 
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Why introduce an unnecessary bureaucracy into the go world? What good does it do? As long as there are no go-enhancing drugs, such testing is nothing more than an invasion of privacy.

I can also empathize with Robert's desire for clarity in this issue. One should neither have to guess, google or make assumptions as to which is the current or valid list, and it seems to me perfectly valid to worry that a mistake or a misunderstanding of pharmaceutical terminology or labeling practice might cost one the right to participate in a go tournament.

BTW, a 9 page list is not "short."

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