Example:
Name in the list: XXXXX.
Name on the box: XXXXX-YYYYY.

In this case, I would conclude: XXXXX-YYYYY is a special type of XXXXX. But if it were ZZZZZ in the list, where XXXXX-YYYYY is a type of ZZZZZ, I would overlook it.



No, common sense is to trust one's doctor and accept whichever drug he prescribes.



The second thing here when somebody has a different opinion is to speak of trolling?

This tells us nothing about whether Go players have to use the WADA list at all or whether they have to use only the list(s) issued by the IGF.



It is incomplete because it misses the IGF-WADA Gentleman Agreement and contradicts the latter. Players should know that the latter overrides the IGF Anti-Doping Regulations. Not stating the IGF-WADA Gentleman Agreement at all is misleading the players.

What exactly does that IGF do...? These doping regulations are strenuous to say the least. The amount of substances that are banned that aren't even tangentially related to go is extreme. I mean psychoactive drugs can be regulated sure, but why adopt a blanket standard put forth by another organization?

Did you look at it? It's not 9 pages of drug names, but mostly explanatory paragraphs. Yes, I think it's short.

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I'm not sure what you mean. Drugs aren't named like that. They have a name - say, paracetamol - they don't have compound names. I think you are a bit confused. Of course, if you have an example other than something you've invented with Xs, Ys and Zs, then it would be worth seeing. But I fear you are simply trying to come up with complications that don't exist.





Not if, for some reason, you are limited as to what you can take. I have a medical condition that means that I can't take drugs that have certain effects. I tell that to doctors, and they adjust, if necessary. This is obviously a different type of limit, but doctors are used to such things. And if you really need something on the list, you can get an exemption.

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This is an old debate but you seem to be a new face, so I'll try to give a summary.

The main role of the fledgling IGF is to turn go into a truly international game, and it and its predecessor groupings have sought to implement that role by getting go accepted in the Olympics. That didn't work, but the Mindsports Games and the Asian Games have opened their doors. In order even to apply to these organisations you have to accept their control and their drugs regimes, and of course if you are accepted you have to implement them. People have realised that the regimes for mobile sports are not appropriate for go (though there is still debate whether go even is a sport) and so the gentlemen's agreement mentioned by Robert came into being. This is supposed to have begotten a more sensible, but still unofficial, list.

As far as I know, this particular drugs regime has already been applied to amateurs in the World Amateur Go Championship, and could, in theory, be applied during training to many amateurs in Europe and the USA who wish to take part in world events. But this out-of-competition stuff has not yet happened, and so far there is no likelihood of it.

Reaction in the west to the whole issue mostly seems to come under the following heads:

1. This is a great way to promote go in the west, especially as we are not making too good a job of it ourselves. We need this higher profile. Accepting a drugs regime is a small price to pay.

2. Alternatively, there are people who see this as a delusion. E.g. bobbing for toffee apples (name your own minority sport) has been in the Olympics for years yet hardly has a high profile even today. Others also consider the drugs regime too high a price to pay, anyway - at one extreme, it's seen as an affront to human rights.

3. Also common is the head-in-the-sand view (or wise view, depending on your standpoint) that argues that this doesn't really affect us, so why worry. A sub-set of this view is that it mostly only affects pros, so only they should decide what regime to accept.

4. Another concern for some is that the IGF is taking actions (even if benign) that affect us all, yet very, very few people know how the members are elected and even fewer know how to make them accountable or how to get their own views represented. Those most concerned may cite also negative experiences with similar organisations such as FIFA, the IOC and so on, but no-one yet has accused the IGF of corruption (the worst that can be said so far is that it has been a child of its sponsor, the Nihon Ki-in, but that relationship has been tempered a little recently - there seem to be moves to share the funding of the IGF; paying the piper and all that).

There are of course other strands. But very few people here have a coordinated or settled view of the topic, as it has not been discussed much publicly outside the forum. Robert, however, has examined the legislation closely. There are also people like Kirk who have useful knowledge from other sports (cycling in Kirk's case). I have some inside knowledge, as a journalist, of international organisations and disliked much of what I saw. Those who have intimate knowledge of how the subject is discussed within the IGF almost never seem to post here or anywhere else, although Robert, terrier like, has been able to elicit quite a lot of details through private e-mails. But I wouldn't say there has been any attempt at secrecy or a cover-up, nor is there even a hint of anything to cover up, and we must remember that the people working with or for the IGF are mostly already very busy amateurs.

However understandable the reasons, the present situation is murky. Robert is perhaps the only person to worry about it at present. To give a personal opinion, I have no worries at present but I do believe on general principles, from looking at other organisations, that what is happening now is likely to be the thin end of a large wedge. But it's unlikely ever to affect me or all but a handful of go players in the west, so that rather than a feeling of worry, I just have a feeling of cynicism (or I suffer from déformation professionnelle, if you prefer).

Incidentally, I'm not clear why Robert brought this up now. I'm not aware of anything happening in this area - perhaps he could explain.

If you are worried about dope testing, then I would suggest that you contact your national Go executive for advice.

I'm not sure one can fairly call the IGF undemocratic, certainly not without broadening the brush stroke.

I'm getting the impression that you're unnecessarily rude here...

In my opinion Go is an infinite endeavour for the perfect game, running 100m or cycling 100km are altogether different. Humans as we know them will never run 100m in 5s so it is imho basically silly to try running even faster and very sensible to put a limit on self-harming performance enhancing activities like doping (because you already are at the limits of the human body). At the same time it is a bit insane to continue to strive for records and better bodily performance when you have to acknowledge that the human body has limits. If you are really serious about doping you should cancel the olympic games (tour de france etc.)

Pushing at intellectual limits in sth. like Go on the opposite does no harm to anybody and there are anyway no widely known performance enhancing substances, so nobody is harming himself while striving for the perfect play. What you have is medication to overcome certain conditions (caffeine for amateurs, oxygen for Nie Weiping e.g.) - but I see no reason at all to regulate these.

I must admit to almost totally skipping Robert and Kirk's posts, because I have read
what they have written on the subjects before. In that spirit, let me too repeat what I have said earlier

Remember that the regulations are only applying to international events, this is not going to apply to 'your local village cricket team'. It might be that they are slightly irritating, but PWaldron's advice is sound. If you are going to the WAGC and are on medication, or buy something over a pharamcist's counter, keep some evidence of what you did.

Amphetamines would be suitable for memorising joseki before an event. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamin ... ancing_use
and one can begin to look elsewhere too http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 6702a.html

I think it's fair to say that there are, indeed, substances that can help go players. Given the length of some matches, amphetamines (and perhaps beta blockers) could certainly give an advantage to some players. Having a clear mind, and not being tired, could be the equivalent of a stone or more to the person who has that advantage.

As to whether they _should_ be regulated, that's a decision made by the IGF, apparently with agreement from enough national go federations to make it stick. If they're really trying to get go in the olympics (a pipe dream in my opinion), and that's what is needed to get to the next level of discussion, then it seems like a small price to pay.

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This first point is already part of the lore of professional go in Japan (where long matches are still common), but in relation to choices for lunch. Noodles for stamina is an old stand-by (just as in marathon running). Not many games take place in August, but if they do, eel is top of the list. Kitani also admitted he piddled so much because he drank so much tea to help him think.

The comparison of amphetamines to food choices is a little shallow. I've had experience with prescribed amphetamines and they would have very powerful effect on players who were prone to distraction or mentally off (tired, sick). In the context of an actual go competition though... I think they would only noticeably be useful if the player was playing multiple matches. On the other hand, the milder side effects of amphetamines are just the kind to ruin a go game (anxiety, irritability, stomach pain).

My example is from prescribed medicine but you will understand that this information is private. Since I do not know other complicated chemical or drug names, I can only invent a pseudo-name to avoid using XXXXX-YYYYY: Suppose the prohibited list has hexaforotol and the medicine box carries hexaforotolbisulphate-4-glukol. This I would correlate. But if it were heptaforoboltrisulphate-5-glukol, then I would have no chance to recognize that an "etc." in the prohibited list might prohibit that, too.



1) They do exist.

2) Some lists of names in the prohibited list are explicitly stated to be incomplete.



When travelling in a foreign country where the player does not speak the doctor's or drug store's language, this can be quite tough. Probably impossible. I recall similar talks: After 20 minutes of an attempt to tell exactly what one wants, the basic information "Do I need it - yes or no?" was still being misunderstood.

I correspond pretty much to John's "head in the sand" view, I believe.

Which is odd, because I actually would have something to be concerned about. I have narcolepsy, and I don't even need to look at the list to be certain that my medication is on it (armodafinil, if anyone wants to check me.) It promotes wakefulness and is a holistic stimulant. Obviously aids concentration. And keeps me from falling asleep during the game.

So far, my plan to deal with it has been to not get strong enough to where it's a problem (as in I'm probably about #420 on the list of potential WAGC candidates.)

But if I somehow did magically attain pro-level strength, I'm pretty sure a doctor's note would see me through - I tend to give people (even bureaucracies) the benefit of the doubt until I see them act otherwise.

From actually reading rules and laws, listening to official statements, posing questions to officials in public, talking to officials and emails.



1) I visited a doctor, got some medicine and only then noticed that, oops, it has a dangerously similar name as some on the IGF prohibited list. This made me aware that bringing Therapeutic Use Exemptions to a doctor only when expecting to get a restricted medicine was the wrong approach. Rather a player visiting a doctor or going to a drug store should always expect the possibility of the IGF prohibited list to become relevant and therefore always carry that list with him.

2) When just double checking, I noticed that the IGF webpage has published a new list of 2010. So my second surprise was that it was too naive to assume that my already locally stored list would be the right one.

3) The incident let me reflect again the position of a player he would have in front of a doping court. I have become aware that proving which rules and lists were valid and effective can be very tough and that information flow from IGF via national associations to the players and the players' support by their NAs is incomplete and misleading. Essentially players are left alone with their duties instead of getting profound support with all the new doping stuff.

Yep, that's on there on page 7, section S6-a, as modafinil (armodafinil is the brand name).

Modafinil is one of the few substances that might actually enhance go performance, from what I've read.

Meds don't use names like that - those are chemical compounds, and the only place they show up in the list is as metabolites. Meds have single would molecule names.



You see, that's why they use the same molecule names for all meds. So the names are the same in different countries, and for researchers, so there's no confusion. They didn't just make this up. As I said, millions of athletes deal with this around the world, in different languages, and you can imagine that the same questions you have were dealt with many years ago when the system was established. But you have trouble with this; you think this system was just created to annoy go players.

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A "dangerously similar name" is not the same. Ask the doctor; he'll tell you if you have doubts.

As for the update to the list, you can see, if you look, that the list is updated every January 1, and you are expected to have informed yourself about that to know that, in the fall, you can get a new list that applies the following January.

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I think any stimulant could be a help, especially with international tournaments where some players may be jet-lagged.

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I agree. Anything that increases concentration (e.g. caffeine) or reduces anxiety (e.g. nicotine) may be of help to some players (i.e. those that lack concentration or are anxious). As long as there are no other effects, that is. In the section on stimulants, they also list MDMA (a.k.a. XTC), which I'm pretty sure isn't gonna help one bit.

I do think that any doping that increases go performance will be in those kinds of categories, reducing anxiety or increasing concentration. I don't think there's any drugs out there that will suddenly teach you new joseki.