Bad experience on KGS

Jujube · #1

OK, some background.

I was bought a go set when I was about 13 (it was a crappy tiny board, with miniature stones not bigger than the nail on my ring finger.)

The book that I bought from my local store was Korschelt's Theory and Practice of Go.

So, obviously, I got nowhere with that book and put my go board away, not really understanding much apart from how to capture a stone. I mean, he tries to teach you how to count the score about 5 pages in with 2 examples and assumes 'well that's ok then' and proceeds to 70 pages of wildly different skill level tesuji problems.

Then, about 10 years later, I got interested in go again after watching HNG on Youtube. That was about 4 months ago I guess.

I viewed some books on scribe, read some of Janice Kim's books, and downloaded Moyo Go Studio to play GNU Go. I bought Kageyama, and read most of that, and bought The Second Book of Go by Bozulich. I've found that book to be VERY instructive. I've also read a little of the Elementary series but not understood the majority of it. I registered on this forum and on KGS.

I got a go board for Xmas, and continued with a few more games on Gnu Go.

I have to stress at this point that my learning style is as a theorist (as opposed to the others: pragmatist, activist, and reflector.) I hardly played any games, and none against a real person on the internet.

I did, however, plough through the books, on the train, in bed, at work, with and without the board. Over and over again.

So, this evening I decided to play a game against a human. Why the long gap? Well, I'm a nervous guy. Call it sensitive, introvert, risk-averse, whatever. I really didn't know what I was doing, if I was any good, if I could apply in any way what I had learned in the books to the limitless positions and shapes in real play.

I played a teaching game against an 8 kyu and got slaughtered. But it was good fun. He said that I played too diagonally, and to settle a position before playing elsewhere, and showed me a snapback I had missed, and also a sequence which would have saved a large group.

At the end of the game, he said that 'if you play someone 20-25kyu, you'll probably do well.' Or words to that effect.

So, I created a game, putting a note after it, 20-25kyu. I got a guest challenge at a 4 stone handicap. Mid-way through the game, at move 74, this popped up in the chat screen:

[them] I think you tricked me into giving you a handicap that your really did not need

And then, throughout the rest of the game:

[them] I call that cheating

[me] well, i've only played one game so far on KGS, and at the end of the review, he said "hmm youre probably about 20-25k"...
[them] bull
[them] you are definitely a liar
[them] and of course I will report that
[them] you will find it very hard to get a game here
[them] and of course, I am going to teach you a lesson as well

The above is just a snippet of the whole conversation. After the game, (I'm not familiar with the UI on KGS so I don't even know if he won or if he just left the screen) feeling a bit shaken, as I said, nervous guy, I asked on the public chat if there was a way to disable the chat screen if something like that happened again. They said 'Don't play guests' which I took as helpful.

Then, someone PMd me saying they had reviewed the game, and that I was no way 25kyu, and although they didn't like the name calling, I got what I deserved and went on about how no one likes a cheater.

Now, it's not that I'm complaining...

I just feel better if I get it off my chest.

I'm not a dishonest person, and I really do object to being bullied. Go is a wonderful game and I feel like I've already been labeled as some horrible deceiving con-artist. It's spoilt it a bit for me.

Did I do wrong?

wms · #2

You did OK. Don't worry about it.

If you want, you can play a few rated games on KGS against computers. That will give you a very good idea of how strong you are, and from then on your games will probably go more smoothly.

Jujube · #3

Since posting, I've had 2 more PMs from different users:

[] the word is that you are new here. Also some are saying that you don.t play fair. That is not the way we play here

[] are you the guy who is cheating?
you are not welcomed here if so.

The first guy I had the game with was so nice. Maybe I should PM him for some moral support lol

***edit***

As a linguist (a failed university linguist, I might add - computer science is going much better) the other PMs do seem to have a suspiciously similar prose. You can log off and on with different handles right? I wonder if it's the same guy.

Thanks wms, I'll give it a try.

wms · #4

They could be the same guy. The server makes no attempt to stop you from logging in with different names. Some people are sore losers, it sounds like he is one.

CnP · #5

This is not what you should expect as typical behaviour on KGS in my experience. You've done nothing wrong and they're just a loser you should ignore. You might want to try out the automatch function next time.

edit:

Quote:

if there was a way to disable the chat screen

yeh this would be nice but isn't available but you can just move the KGS window off screen slightly to hide the chat panel.

Violence · #6

Hahaha, lighten up, man. I'm 90% sure that was just one guy. There are so many sandbaggers on KGS, they aren't unusual enough to warrant harassment by people you don't know, much less so since you're 20-25k.

What you described just sounds like typical guest behavior. Don't let it get to you.

Way back when I was trying to get an account ranked, I accidentally accepted a guest game, not knowing I could escaped with no penalty in the first 30 moves, I thought I was forced to play it out.

Though my rank was [8k?] at the time, I was in fact much stronger, and in the even game with the guest, I demolished him. What followed was a series of pm's telling me that I'm not that good, that he could've beaten me, that I'm too scared to accept a rematch, before I blocked him.

Jujube · #7

Well, back during my chess days, it was quite shocking what some people would call other people on the chat screens... it was a bit cutthroat. But, you just blocked them. As I'm still feeling my way around, I didn't know what to do apart from play out the game with this guy piping up every 10 moves with one of his put-downs. It was a bit distracting! Oh well.

I've just had a chat with someone on KGS and they made me feel better, so thanks that person, and everyone else of you nice people! Boo to nasty people!

lol...

Right. I'm going to have a mince pie and cream, and go to bed with Tesuji and Anti-Suji of Go, and see how much of it I can get through before my eyes glaze over in bafflement.

yoyoma · #8

Anonymous guest was rude, surprise!

Jujube wrote:

I didn't know what to do apart from play out the game with this guy piping up every 10 moves with one of his put-downs. It was a bit distracting! Oh well.

Just leave the game if the guy is rude (don't resign). Since it was free it actually doesn't make any difference if you resign but for rated games if you get into the same situation don't resign since that messes up the rating system.

LocoRon · #9

Jujube wrote:

Well, back during my chess days, it was quite shocking what some people would call other people on the chat screens... it was a bit cutthroat. But, you just blocked them.

That's a good way of handling the annoying trolls on KGS, as well.

Right click on their handle, and select to censor them.

Bartleby · **#10**

I've had a few experiences with unpleasant people on KGS, but the vast majority of my opponents have been well-behaved. Really, compared to the behavior of many chessplayers on ICC and Playchess, Go players on KGS are quite civilized.

I think you will also find as your rank advances and you play stronger players, you will have fewer and fewer occasions where your opponent starts acting out.

So I would say, don't let one experience with one (or a few) bad apples discourage you. It's important to play (and lose) a lot of games at your level. And the rude opponent you encountered is an unfortunate exception, not the rule.

hyperpape · **#11**

Sorry to hear about that. You may well be 20-25 in spite of all that, btw. Play another game, or if you're hesitant, watch games between 20 kyu players and ask whether they're playing the kind of moves you might play.

When playing a game, I think you can shrink the chat window so it doesn't show the abuse.

jdl · **#12**

Play ranked games against WeakBot50k a few times until you get a ranking. Then go to "Play Go" -> "Automatch Preferences" and make sure that "Unranked Opponents OK" is not checked, plus whatever other preferences you may have. Then activate automatch and see if it can find you a game. With the settings I have shown, I rarely have to wait more than 30 seconds before a game starts.

Some of the nicest people I've ever met on the internet have been through KGS. Don't let one or two idiots deter you.

tchan001 · **#13**

Probably best to just play the various bots first to get a ranking. Once your ranking stabilzes (at least 2 wins and 2 losses) then you'll find it much easier to find games.

kirkmc · **#14**

KGS can be both a very friendly place, and a very unfriendly place. Part of this is because one can create accounts anonymously, with no expectation of anyone verifying who you are, and can then act as one wants with no retribution. In a way this is good, but for newcomers it can be very bad. I, for one, think that the ability to be anonymous and have multiple accounts is a Bad Thing, but others don't agree. The best thing is to be aware that there are a lot of really obnoxious people on KGS, and censor them when they bother you.

You might try the KGS Teaching Ladder room, where you can get teaching games and make some progress. Once you get into a higher, more stable ranking, you should have fewer problems.

Oh, and don't play guests.

CnP · **#15**

Quote:

Right. I'm going to have a mince pie and cream, and go to bed with Tesuji and Anti-Suji of Go, and see how much of it I can get through before my eyes glaze over in bafflement.

at your level you should just play loads of games for a while.

Tofu · **#16**

CnP wrote:

Quote:

Right. I'm going to have a mince pie and cream, and go to bed with Tesuji and Anti-Suji of Go, and see how much of it I can get through before my eyes glaze over in bafflement.

at your level you should just play loads of games for a while.

I disagree. Playing lots of games is the most important thing, but there's nothing wrong with reading and thinking about tesuji problems. Thats a great book, I'm going through it now too :geek:

quantumf · **#17**

CnP wrote:

at your level you should just play loads of games for a while.

That's what I tell all beginners, but I recently encountered a remarkable fellow who played less than 30 games to reach sdk (and that includes 9x9 games), over a period of about 3 or 4 months. He's read a few books on theory, and does a lot of tsumego problems. Actually, I'v seen him do tsumego problems, and he's probably closer to 5k at tsumego, and can even sometimes solve dan level problems.

He's a very strong chess player, which presumably has helped him, particularly in the reading department.

Jujube · **#18**

quantumf wrote:

CnP wrote:

at your level you should just play loads of games for a while.

That's what I tell all beginners, but I recently encountered a remarkable fellow who played less than 30 games to reach sdk (and that includes 9x9 games), over a period of about 3 or 4 months. He's read a few books on theory, and does a lot of tsumego problems. Actually, I'v seen him do tsumego problems, and he's probably closer to 5k at tsumego, and can even sometimes solve dan level problems.

He's a very strong chess player, which presumably has helped him, particularly in the reading department.

Reminds me of myself

I do love go books almost as much as playing. It's the fact that they're (in the UK at least) hard to find, quite expensive, used, they have a history... I mean, I have dozens of chess books and they just feel like books. But go books just feel a bit special... I can't put my finger on it.

Quote:

He's a very strong chess player, which presumably has helped him, particularly in the reading department.

I'm a fairly decent chess player. I didn't find it easy, and still don't find it easy, to read go positions.
Go is all about visualising shapes, and chess is more... well, I think they're quite different - I definitely didn't find the skill transferable.

tchan001 · **#19**

Jujube wrote:

I do love go books almost as much as playing. It's the fact that they're (in the UK at least) hard to find...

For go books and equipment in the UK, maybe check out the following
http://www.britgo.org/bgabooks/supplier.html
http://www.thetradingcentre.co.uk/

CnP · **#20**

I'm in the UK too. Also, for books in the UK I like

http://www.pentangle-puzzles.co.uk/

but I also order books from

http://www.schaakengo.nl

who keep their web pages up to date with new books. Their postage is the same (or less) than UK sellers and the books arrive just as quickly. Also the BGA book seller has retired so you can't order books from the BGA right now (the reason my membership has lapsed).

I suggested playing because I remember I forced my way through the Elementary Go series (all of them other than vol 7 which I didn't know existed), graded go problems vol 2 and get strong at tesuji etc *before* I played any games against real people .. and in my experience it was probably a waste of time or very inefficient.

I don't think it's very usual to get strong by just reading books - in fact I seem to remember a short essay in T&AS against that. T&AS is a nice book but until you've learnt the contents of "Tesuji" I don't think it's all that necessary.

Bad experience on KGS

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