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 Post subject: Post your ladders!
Post #1 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:31 pm 
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In a handicap game I played today, the following position appeared on the board:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X X X X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X O X O X O C . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O O X X S . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . O . O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X X O . O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X O O X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O X O X . X X Q X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Notice how :wt: is in the perfect position to make the ladder at :es: work! So I get to capture four stones instead of just playing at :ec: !

Post some other examples of interesting ladders from your games. :D

EDIT: Removed "neat" so I don't sound like a little girl. :mrgreen:

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Post #2 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:17 pm 
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Post #3 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:59 pm 
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This is the best one I can remember actually occurring in a game of mine.



Attachments:
read the ladder.sgf [1.78 KiB]
Downloaded 1209 times

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #4 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:50 am 
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Dusk Eagle - wow, a 1k didn't bother to read that ladder? It's not as if it was a blitz game, and even if he misread at first and thought it was in his favour, did he not stop and read it again after you'd played it out a few stones? (I know I do this when my opponent starts to play out a ladder that I thought was in my favour - and on at least one occasion discovered, in time to avoid disaster, that I had indeed misread the first time.) :scratch:

One dreads to think what Kageyama would have said...

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #5 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:10 am 
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robinz- misreading ladders is not uncommon (and sometimes when people notice they misread they keep going anyway..). usually I trace my finger over the board to make sure i'm doing it right, even (especially) in tournament games.

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Post #6 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:51 am 
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robinz wrote:
Dusk Eagle - wow, a 1k didn't bother to read that ladder?


Imagine the internal dialog from his opponent. "Wow, I can't believe that this 1k moron didn't bother to read out the ladd... oh."

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Post #7 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:04 am 
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Yeah, it's a pretty dumb mistake. Especially considering how :w52: is unnecessary. But I guess once he started, he may have been thinking, "if I'm wrong, I've lost anyway, so there's no point in stopping to read it out again."

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Post #8 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:46 am 
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robinz wrote:
Dusk Eagle - wow, a 1k didn't bother to read that ladder?

I'm sure you guys are already familiar with the famous 2003 Lee Sedol game where he played out a ladder he couldn't win.

http://senseis.xmp.net/?LeeSedolHongChangSikLadderGame

But the failed ladder forced a capture on the other side of the board to allow him to win the game overall.


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Post #9 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:50 am 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
Yeah, it's a pretty dumb mistake. Especially considering how :w52: is unnecessary. But I guess once he started, he may have been thinking, "if I'm wrong, I've lost anyway, so there's no point in stopping to read it out again."


I get nervous playing out a ladder that I think is in my favor. After every move I always stop and read it out again.


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Post #10 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Confidence in your reading :rambo: ! If you can't read, you have nothing! Live and die by it!

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #11 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:26 am 
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Well, Tygem 3d's can't read ladders either.

Image

Image

Image

Ladder reading. Completely unnecessary.

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Post #12 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:48 pm 
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My best ladder recently never actually showed up on the board *as a ladder*, but it let me gain at least 15 points in a tournament game. (I was black with 4 stones... something bad happened in the lower left early on, but what happens now starts to make up for it.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc What does black do?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . X . . O O X O . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . O X . X O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O X . O . O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X X . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . X . . O O X O . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . O X . X O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O X . O . O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X X . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | O O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :b8: is the fist hidden behind the ladder breaker silk glove
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . X . . O O X O . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . O X . X O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O X . O . O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X X . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . . O 4 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 5 O O 8 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . O . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | O O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :b2: breaks the ladder again, so white has to spend more moves to capture
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . X . . O O X O . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . O X . X O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O X . O . O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X X . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . X . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X 3 O . X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | O O O X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #13 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
Image

I would have posted this, which is much more frightening.

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Post #14 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Fedya wrote:
Shaddy wrote:
Image

I would have posted this, which is much more frightening.


You have posted it. :)


Last edited by mw42 on Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:28 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
robinz- misreading ladders is not uncommon (and sometimes when people notice they misread they keep going anyway..). usually I trace my finger over the board to make sure i'm doing it right, even (especially) in tournament games.

Seriously?! And you're KGS 3 dan? I have never seen anybody do this in tournaments, not even double-digit kyu players! If my opponent would try that, it would really annoy me, and I'd probably tell him to stop (calling the referee might not even be unreasonable, because you're obstructing your opponent's thought process pretty badly). Now I don't know you personally, but I'd strongly advise you to stop this if you ever want your dan grade to be taken seriously ;).

By the way, I think anyone who is not sure whether they've read out a ladder correctly should just re-read and re-read until they are sure (even kyu players). They give you plenty of time in tournaments, and if you don't learn to read you will not get stronger. Finger tracing is for dweebs :cool:.

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Post #16 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:54 am 
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I can read ladders out, but a lot of times my reading will just do a brain-fart and it'll look good no matter how many times I check it, but then I trace over the board and it breaks. It's just for those rare (but possible) cases where that happens and no matter how much reading practice I get, it won't go away. I'm just prone to stupid mistakes like that. I figure there's no reason to throw away a game over a silly misread I can avoid so easily, so I really don't see a reason not to make sure (other than the fact that it might disturb my opponent, and even pros are known to fiddle with the stones on the board, so..)

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Post #17 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:01 am 
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Everybody's prone to silly mistakes. That's why you should re-read :)

But finger-tracing is just as annoying as hovering a stone over the board to see how it would look in that spot... I might be wrong, but I would not be surprised if common tournament rules actually disallow this kind of thing, just like checking out sequences on your PDA is not allowed. If not, then surely the unwritten laws of tournament etiquette disallow it, no?

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Post #18 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:24 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
I can read ladders out, but a lot of times my reading will just do a brain-fart and it'll look good no matter how many times I check it, but then I trace over the board and it breaks. It's just for those rare (but possible) cases where that happens and no matter how much reading practice I get, it won't go away. I'm just prone to stupid mistakes like that. I figure there's no reason to throw away a game over a silly misread I can avoid so easily, so I really don't see a reason not to make sure (other than the fact that it might disturb my opponent, and even pros are known to fiddle with the stones on the board, so..)


Why not make special gloves, one black and one white with same color gostones glued to your knuckles. Then you can put your hands on the board all the time and read out 10 moves ahead all day long.

I must say I applaud the sentiment here, there is no reason not to do this "other than the fact it might disturb my opponent"

To me - that would be the first reason not to do something...

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Post #19 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Depends on how the finger tracing is done, I'd say. I've seen an opponent finger trace from his place and only noticed it because his finger was waggling.

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Post #20 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:35 pm 
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I do it somewhat above the board. Honestly.. I would rather be rude in this way and play a proper game than be polite, misread a ladder, and be forced to resign. I feel it's rude even to make a mistake like that, since I am disrespecting my opponent by not playing as well as I can.

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