I have hit a depressing area with go. I love the game very much. I wish I could get strong enough to become a professional player. But since that is not happening I feel like the only option left is to enjoy the game as an amateur. This is nice, but in terms of what I'm going to do with my life, not nearly satisfying enough! I feel like if I can't make a living playing go, then there isn't much left.

It is very frustrating. How do you cope with this?

You're setting yourself up rather too well for the standard snarky comments. Like 'what's wrong with being an amateur', 'Rome wasn't built in a day', 'do you enjoy nothing at all that you can't make a living from' etc. etc.

Seriously, what's the problem with not being the best in the world at an activity. If your enjoyment of the activity is based solely upon a realistic intention to be the best, then okay, you've got a problem, but this is not a very normal value function.

I have a sense of perspective, there are other things in life that are worth enjoying besides go.

I never even considered becoming pro.

In a sport you need to be one of the best to make decent money whereas in a normal job being good is enough. I'm a good programmer but I'm surely not top 5 in my country. On the other hand even as a top 5 player of my country I wouldn't make any decent money with go. And even if you become pro, there is the constant stress of winning, and as a low level pro you don't make much money either.

In addition I can't image putting that much effort into go. I'd burn out and hate the game much earlier than coming near pro level. If I think how much time a local EGF 4d put into go, and even he is so far away from having a chance of becoming pro. I rather like having go as just a hobby helping me relax from university or a job.

While of course I want to improve, realistically I won't ever get into the high amateur dans. Something like KGS 3 or 4 dan might be possible if I don't quite before getting there.

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Sanity is for the weak.

Invest yourself in something else. If you've already given up on becoming a pro, it won't hurt to start exploring and spend less time on Go. You're probably still young and there are plenty of other interesting things in the world. After my second year of not getting into grad schools, that's what I did. For one thing, I found Go. It won't help me make a living, but I'm looking at other options in that respect too. I haven't given up on grad school yet either, though. And being a 9 kyu, unless you have been stuck at that rank for a while, I think it's probably premature for you to give up on Go as well.

That's the best suggestion I can give. Asking strangers on the internet these sorts of questions is probably going to give poor results. It's definitely something you're going to need to work through, probably with the help of someone you're close to.

question: how old are you?
- under 15 (the younger the better): keep working, you will probably not make it to pro level, but you can be a very strong amateur, even earning money with go eventually (though not as a full time job). and you have probably enough free time, so you can do what you want
- other (i guess this is the case): forget about becoming a pro, it would be miracle to succeed at it. you will have to do also something else than go in your life. once you accept this, there is no problem to devote your free time to go if you enjoy it. being strong amateur is also quite satisfying

i am sure you can still move from 9k reasonably long way up, i think i've read that you don't need any special talent to make it to shodan.
give yourself more achievable goals - i am right now trying to get to 1d EGF, then i will want to qualify for Czech Championship and then i don't know, most likely some higher dan grades and international qualifications, nothing is terribly far from the previous step

besides these advices, i can understand you. every day i regret that i hadn't meet go earlier so i could be stronger and when i hear a silly joke and start laughing against my will, i remind myself that i won't ever by strong enough to become a pro and laughing stops

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Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.

What is the point of it all? Contrary to common understanding, it is not to beat the other guy, nor is it to get the highest rating that you can.

The contest is not you vs someone else, it is you vs you.

Your opponent is not there to prevent you from learning, rather he is there to prevent false learning.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

What is the point of anything?

For me, personally, there is no point. We should just do things because we like doing them.

edit: oh and in case you do, I'd stop watching HnG on youtube

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I am John. John-I-Am.

You seemed to be in such a fervor to improve, and now that you've hit a hard patch you're getting depressed about it. You can't scale a mountain in a single leap. Try slowing down and setting more achievable goals - goals that will take work but that you can probably achieve. Set them a couple kyu levels (or even just one) ahead of where you are, and then you may find it's easier to feel good about your progress.

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We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

Think about this: Would you still enjoy Go if you would be a pro? If you would have to play Go every day? If your well being would depend upon your victories against your opponents?

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Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)

*ahem*

Sorry. I have cyclothemic disorder, which is a form of bipolar. Usually when I'm in my characteristic "lows" I pull stuff like this.

I'm actually working towards a valuable career with wal-mart, so ignore the stupid post i just made.

Well, to be blunt - there is no point to it, other than having fun.
This is why we all play Go, even the pros, although this is just a guess.

If you stop having fun, go do something else.

There is so many frustrating things in life - if your hobby starts frustrating you to the point you feel the need to seek help/advice from strangers, its time to change the hobby. There is absolutely no point in playing Go if this is how you feel.

Just my opinion, but I stand by it!

PS>
By the way - this is a primary example of what i have been talking about so many times: the rank chasing (or, in this case, the status chasing, or whatever.) If your main purpose for playing Go is to chase the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, there is no point to it - you will either reach the pot at some potin (become pro, reach certain rank, etc) or you will realize it is too hard for you - and then the whole point of playing Go will start to disappear for you. This is why the best way to enjoy the game is not to worry about such things but just play game after game and derive as much fun out of each game as you possibly can! yeah, baby, yeah!...

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

*AHEM*

SEE MY PREVIOUS POST.

Oh, I see.
Note to self: read the whole thread before answering a post.
But then - what's the fun in that?!? Anybody actually does that?

Still, I think what i said was wise, educational, moralizing, soap-boxy, and overall valuable contribution to this esteemed forum. Yes! lol....

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Small problem, at least for me: That's way easier written (or even read) than done Any tips?


Michael

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Go is easy: don't play bad moves.

Swim or sink.

Okay, that's a little harsh sounding, so let me elaborate: I feel that Go will inevitably teach you the value of learning vs. the value of winning (the journey vs. the destination), and in the process it teaches you patience. You'll probably either learn this (and then improve) or give up and walk away from it. Likely, there will be periods where you'll encounter both, to varying degrees. Breaks can be good, and they help to re-focus.

My experience is that I learn (and improve) better when I "yield" and stop trying (to win, to improve), a "letting go" type of feeling. It doesn't always work -- in fact, it frequently doesn't work and I have to get myself back on track --, but since we are not professionals, we can actually take a step back when frustration surfaces. I noticed with myself that when I get frustrated, my spontaneous (instinctive? trained?) reaction is to try even harder, which in the end makes me only even more frustrated. So a better approach is to "take it easy" and work a little on your perspective. Philosophically put, be like water. In a way, you get what you put into it: You put force into it, you get force back. You put enjoyment into it, you get enjoyment out of it.

It's mostly a spiritual-intellectual process, I think, but that probably depends on each person and what drives them, so what I write here is just from my perspective. It's quite likely totally different for others. Realistically, though, you know you won't ever be a professional player, so to you (and me) Go is chiefly a game, or a learning tool. It will not have to pay your rent or put the food on the table. So, does it matter if you'll be 1 dan in a year? Or two? Or ten? Or maybe never? If so, why?

Go "scales" really well with a person's strength. You can have enjoyable games at 25kyu, at 10kyu, at 1 dan, at 5 dan, etc, so why the hurry? The games may be different, but are they more or less fun? Have fun right now, and if you lose a game, try and appreciate the immense learning potential this loss just offered to you. Yes, that sounds easier than it is, especially if you're prone to thinking, "I'll never learn this!" or "Bah, I'm just too stupid/old/hopeless for this game!".

Getting from there to thinking "Woohoo, I lost! Yay! Awesome! I can learn from this!" is quite the way. Takes work and time. Be patient, be gentle with yourself. Every time you manage to shift your perspective a little and do fully realise that the value and beauty is the learning (the journey), it's a small success.

Personally I find it more fun as an SDK than I did as a DDK, because I have slightly more idea what's going on. I'd be interested to know whether this is normal, and also whether dan players find it more fun than they did as SDKs. Reading about how strong players think about the game certainly makes it sound more interesting than the sort of "what on earth should I be trying to do?" thinking that dominates my own play.

Sometimes my dreams get ahead of reality. That is, I have goals and dreams of what things could be like, but my ability and/or actions have not yet caught up. This still happens to me, so I do not have a solution that I've followed completely.

But I would say that the thing that has worked best is to "just do it". That is, to just play go. Or just study go. Just do some sort of action. At first it's somewhat disappointing, because maybe your ability is not at the same level as where your dream or ambition is. But to some degree, I have started to enjoy the time I spend "just doing it".

I still have the same dreams and ambitions - I have not let go of them. But maybe I don't need to spend all of my time thinking about them. I can spend some time simply "doing"...

Not that this brings any "point" to anything. It's just an amusing way to spend your time, I suppose.

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be immersed

Of course it is easier written that done!
I could say: worthwhile things are often hard. But this would be like saying nothing.

Ultimately, you have fun with what you have fun with, its not a switch, and I don't think you can change it by logic. If rank chasing is what gives you pleasure, chase ranks, what can I say. But if you wish to remain honest and realistic - keep in mind what you are doing, be aware of it, and understand that most likely you will reach a point in which Go will become pointless to you. And that you will question yourself a lot, and never be totally at peace with your motivations - until you look the beast in the even and admit that this is all there is to it for you.

I am not sure how to address that, how to give you advice. How to help, if help is asked for here.
Maybe I was just fortunate that I always have had players around me who were so much stronger I accepted the fact I will never be like them. Over the years I have surpassed most of them, but I found others who are much stronger. So the whole idea of rank-chasing seems silly to me, no offense. Maybe its humility?... Although people who know me would probably laugh when they hear the word 'humility' and 'Rafael' in the same sentence, lol.

All in all, you yam what you yam, and all you can do is the bast with what you got.
If rank chasing is what you're all about, face it, admit it, be honest about it - to yourself. And maybe this realization itself helps you overcome this particular obstacle.

I think this is what I have to say about that, at the moment.

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- Bantari
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