I was thinking of posting about how my reading still sucks after 3 years of go, and then in the context of this thread about whether fundamentals exist, realized that despite all the tsumego I do and all the books I read and all the games I play and review, Kageyama might not be wrong about calling me one of the lazy students who won't get anywhere. His suggestion was: "Confine your practice to this one exercise every day until you can read the long-distance ladder in Dia. 1 with the greatest of ease, right out to its end." Honest answer: did you do it?

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Patience, grasshopper.

Yes, I did. Took his advice there and practiced it a week with many ladder problems and I must say this ladder reading skill won quite a few games already against opponents around my level who simply misread or hoped for the best while I could be sure of the outcome.

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Human beings cannot stop doing what they really desire to do. ; Amamiya-sensei
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I would say "sort of". I trace the laddered player's path with my eyes until it gets near stones, where I break into reading proper. I think he considers me a hopeless cheater.

(And practicing hasn't really helped, maybe I have never been diligent enough.)

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Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

For me, ladders which bend are really difficult to read correctly

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

I won most of my handicap games as White with the ability to properly read out ladders and I must say I followed Kageyama's advice to some extent. Sadly, in the end it bored me because visualizing simple ladders is not very entertaining and I was too lazy to search for good ladder problems.
But here is one out of my games ^^

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Black's last move is marked
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O X X . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O . O O X X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . O X X O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . X . O X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . X X B O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O O O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O X X O , O X . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . O X . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X . X . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . X . . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play. (As always with these problems, Black will play to the bitter end and won't compromise.)


post scriptum:

Second one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Black's last move is marked
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . X X X . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X O O O X X X O O X . O . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . . , O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O . . O . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . O . B X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play. (As always with these problems, Black will play to the bitter end and won't compromise.)

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

It's hard for me to know when I've gotten to the stage of "greatest of ease". I'd guess that I probably haven't gotten to this stage, if it actually exists concretely. I have gotten to a stage of being able to read the latter "with some ease".

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be immersed

SDN: I see no ladder in your game. I only see a weak white group at the top and a weak white group at the bottom.

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Sanity is for the weak.

You're right, I'm sorry. I didn't check it since my opponent made it to a ladder problem ^^

post scriptum: I changed the game a bit. It should work now.

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

SDN game 1:

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Sanity is for the weak.

Yes. : )

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I did practise reading ladders but I think "...until I do it effortlessly" is impossible. There is always room for improvement in reading ladders, I can never do it effortlessly but I think I improved at it a bit.

But what I find more difficult is wide reading, as opposed to deep reading. I consider ladder reading more a kind of deep reading (even though there may be exceptions).

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If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

Just to clarify: The question is not "can you read ladders?" but rather: "did you do what Kageyama suggested?"

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Patience, grasshopper.

I'm sure we discussed this the last time ladders came up, but what goes through your mind when you're reading ladders? I find that any thing longer than a few steps, I can't see the ladder, but sort of mentally think "white-black-white-black..." I don't lean down or trace the board or any of that, but I have to think about it point by point after the first couple of moves.

This way is very slow, and works very poorly for ladders that run into other stones. It's also harder for me to read deeply with ladders than other shapes. Not that I'm great at reading anything, but for problems with more interesting shapes, I can keep them in my head for more moves than a simple ladder.

What is reading ladders like for those of you who've followed Kageyama's advice? It's honestly very hard for me to even practice, because I think I'm just doing it wrong. Should I be exercising my visualization by working with short ladders and working up until I can see the whole thing?

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Occupy Babel!

Nope! This is not a ladder. White 7 should be at J12, catching Black cleanly in a geta.

So instead of B2, Black plays J13, intending to capture the top and win on points. What does White do next?

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

I think he encourages to visualize all the stones when reading the ladder and not just following the ladder intersections with eye like tic-tac-tic-tac-...

It is a different mental approach to reading. I can do it for short ladders but not for long ones, even if there are no other stones on the road of ladder.

But to be honest, whenever I have to read a ladder longer than 4-5 moves, I just use the tic-tac trick because the Kageyama method takes too long and is tiring. Maybe it is worth further practising, I don't know.

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If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

with long ladders I begin by tracing the ladder with my eyes and only start to think "white-black-white-black..." near obstacles ..
even though I practiced following Kgeyama's advice, i misread some ladders in my games, where I was to stubborn to re-re-check the ladder if my opponent continued it.

Like entropi, I have a difficult time reading "wide". I think this is just because I haven't done enough training. But sometimes I get in a loop, re-reading what I've already read, because I'm afraid I've missed a "trick" in one variation.

But then, I sometimes do miss such a "trick", anyway.

When the search tree seems wide, then I spend a lot of extra time spinning my wheels, exploring the same variation multiple times.

I think I just need to practice more to resolve this.

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be immersed

I'm in transition from the old "tic-tac" way of reading to actually seeing all the stones on the board as the ladder plays out. I definitely think that it is possible to read ladders effortlessly. Since I can't do that yet, I suppose I should follow Kageyama's advice and do more ladder problems. It can only help. Thanks, daal, for reminding me of this passage.

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We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

this is my problem. I'm always looking for ladders, and I miss the nets.

I did not follow his advice even though I fully appreciate its value. I'm really lazy at other things too.