Magicwand has a valid point, one that I have found myself agreeing with in principle. However, I do believe there is a balance that can be made.

I like providing variations. As I've played more in this format, it's become more of a tool for myself than for my audience. Playing a Malkovich game, for me, is my newest way to improve on consistency in my plans. I can go back and see exactly where I abandoned my plans for something silly.

Lately, I've tried to reduce the number of variations I show because I don't think it adds anything. I like topazg's idea to separate sections, and I like magicwand's to-the-point comments and the idea that the moves themselves should say most of what you want to say.

For beginners, I try to touch on ideas and concepts, not go through variation after variation. I think this is better for someone to learn from, as they are forced to think about the idea and apply it themselves, instead of memorizing sequences ... which is the exact thing I DON'T want beginners doing.

[quote=Tryphon]Tell me if the idea seems inconceivable, I was wondering if we could develop something between an SGF viewer and a wiki, where the players would have only access to the main branch, others could add their comments, we could label comments as good / bad, etc. It seems that Josekipedia is not so far from that.[/quote]

Well, Tryphon, I've already begun thinking about designing a Malkovich type tool. There are a number of things that would be nice to be able to do, but can't easily be done in a regular forum thread.

If I can get something done in PHP, I'll see if it can be added to the site, as the site is open source. However, I have severe limits on my time currently, so I've got nothing together yet. If I ever get something off the ground on this, I'll let everyone know.

me and magicwand seem to be similar, typing style aside. in my malkovich ive made a total of 1 diagram so far (and it was 3 moves). i kinda see making the diagrams as a waste, when i can explain what im thinking in text. those who make tons of diagrams, i really dont read them, makes me lose interest. though sometimes i wish magicwand would go into at least a bit more detail (ideas behind the move behind made), i dont think the way he does things is bad. on the other hand, i really like the way araban is doing things, so i dont have to read through the diagrams, i can watch them.

Araban's videos are interesting but it's hard to look something up.
I really like text comments, so I don't have to watch the presentations, I can read them.

_________________
To sig or not to sig, that is the question.

Next time I play one of these I'm going to try embedding SGF files if there are lots of variations that I want to show. It takes up less space than multiple diagrams and lets observers navigate them out naturally. I think seeing the moves played out in sequence in an SGF viewer is easier and more natural than reading numbers off a diagram. It also takes less work than diagrams to create an sgf file.

_________________
KGS 4 kyu - Game Archive - Keyboard Otaku

I find the current SGF viewer in the forums to be difficult (for me) to navigate. I always find myself downloading any SGF and running through it in Drago or CGOBAN.

I don't like the video commentaries. They are much slower than I would read, and text has the additional advantage that I can skim over sections that are obvious to me.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

I like Araban's Malkovich videos; I find them to be an efficient way of communicating, with diagrams and words overlayed in time rather than just spread out in space. Sometimes I get a bit tired of scrolling backwards and forwards through the usual Malkovivh commentaries (it's no biggie, but I prefer how streamlined the videos are).

It seems to me that some people like short explanations, some people like long; some people like text, others like video.

The merits of a particular style of comments can be debated, but I think ultimately each player should make the type of comments in-game that they feel most comfortable with themself. If some other person does not like that style of comment, they do not have to follow that Malkovich game.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

what you're saying is true, but don't forget, the purpose of Malkovich games is to get inside the head of Malkovich (the players) to see what they see -- remember the movie?. How can we see if they don't describe it best they can?

On the contrary, I think that we're able to see what each player considers to be most important. If they don't cover something that you are interested in, feel free to ask the player - many Malkovich games could use more comments directed to the players.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

I know Araban took quite a lot of effort to produce the video commentaries, but I find that they take too long. Reading text commentaries is much faster for me.

_________________
My homepages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Unkx80 and http://yeefan.sg/.

On the contrary, the video commentaries actually take very little time . In fact, I think I could transcribe what I said, diagrams and everything, and post that along with the video and still have it be less work than I put into the Joaz game :p. This way the video fans can watch the video, and those who prefer text can just go over the text - I think I'll give it a try and see how long it takes.

Regardless of what you choose for the Malkovich games, I hope we get to see more video reviews of whole games (or the most important aspects) in the game analysis subforum. That's IMO where the video reviews really shine.

_________________
FusekiLibrary, an opening library.
SGF converter tools: Wbaduk NGF to SGF | 440 go problems | Fuseki made easy | Tesuji made easy | Elementary training & Dan level testing | Dan Tutor Shortcut To Dan

This, I agree.

_________________
My homepages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Unkx80 and http://yeefan.sg/.

Thirded. Now you're obliged to. Forum rules.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

Sorry about that.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

@Magicwand: think that you totally missed the goal of Malkovich games. The goal is to be explicit, not to be right. I started the Malkovich games to examine thinking processes. That is why they are called Malkovich games - you get to be inside someone else's head.

You citicize the games because we diagram bad moves. Of course we do. We are not pros. We make bad moves, and any player stronger than 27K knows that. If you want beginners to see something better than our mistaken diagrams, then add your own diagrams. You are stronger than the
majority of Malkovich players, and you could contribute to their threads by showing how they could be thinking better. We won't be offended if you do.

Note that the Big Brother Malkovich game is the next step in that direction: it does not merely allow a stronger player to comment, it requires it. My fantasy would be to have another player on each team - a pro who would correct our 4-6Ds.

( To those who find Magicwand's comment too egotistical: I ask that you keep in mind that his native language is not English, and that such subleties as egotism may not translate well. )

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Giving the user the option to view through eidogo or the flash viewer on demand is on our "To-do" list.

_________________
I'm thinking...

Awesome.