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 Post subject: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #1 Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:13 pm 
Gosei
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I did something similar to this on GD a while ago and the response was great. A lot of people participated and it was overall very fun so I thought it would be nice to try it again and see just how well people are at judging the strength level of certain games. For those who don't know how to play, the rules are quite simple. Below you will see 5 games. The objective is to determine how strong the players in each of the game are. The players' ranks in the games are as follows:

  • Professionals (both are top 10 in their countries)
  • KGS 5d
  • KGS 1d
  • KGS 7k
  • KGS 14k

As you can see, the gaps between each level are quite large - so people should have no problem figuring out which game belongs to which strength group...right? :) Personally, my feelings are that a lot of Go players don't have such a great sense (despite what kibitzers will tell you) of how strong the players are in a game, so prove me wrong :D. Answers will be posted after the thread winds down (or will it even kick off as well as last time?).

Game 1


Game 2


Game 3


Game 4


Game 5


This post by Solomon was liked by 2 people: BaghwanB, Jonas
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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #2 Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:36 pm 
Honinbo

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My Guesses:

Game 1: 7k
Game 2: pro
Game 3: 14k
Game 4: 1d
Game 5: 5d

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #3 Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Well, it's plain as day that 1 and 3 are kyu, where as 2, 4, and 5 are stronger than that. I'll be looking more indepth later.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #4 Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:47 pm 
Gosei

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Ok, I'll bite:
Game1: 14k
Game2: 5d
Game3: 1d
Game4: 7k
Game5: pro

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #5 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:11 am 
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My try:
Game1: 14k ~ not sure, but I hope no 7k would play #25.

Game2: 1d ~ The opening looks very unorthodox but I think all the moves look ok

Game3: 7k ~ Some fierce attacks are going on but I'll doubt that a 5d or pro would leave weak groups like this

Game4: 5d ~ Looks like a 5d lighting game, although I'm not sure maybe Game2 is 5d and this one 1d...

Game5: Pro ~ Playing the "wrong" direction in avalanche-style looks very much like lee changho

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #6 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:16 am 
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Solch, can you tell us about the time controls on these games? Are they variable? Comparable? Different? Same?

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #7 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:31 am 
Gosei
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1. 7k
2. 1D
3. 14k
4. Pro
5. 5D

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #8 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:34 am 
Site Admin
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Universal go server handle: Jordus
1. 7k
2. 1D
3. 14k
4. 5D
5. Pro

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #9 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:50 am 
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KGS: Dogen
1 - 7k
2 - 1d
3 - 14k
4 - pro
5 - 5d



Edit, after posting and peeking at hidden text: Interesting, I agree with SoDesuNe and Jordus and I only disagree on the last two... Maybe a trend?

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Last edited by kirkmc on Thu May 06, 2010 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #10 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:51 am 
Oza
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Fun stuff Araban, thx!

1. Fraught with moves that look to my 7k eyes like errors. 14k
2. Strategically consistent game by both players. 5d
3. Cocky opening by w. 7k
4. W outfoxes b in opening, b outfoxes w on bottom and wins. Rollicking game.1d
5. Slow, deliberate and calculated game. And resigning a close game? pro

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Last edited by daal on Thu May 06, 2010 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #11 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:58 am 
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1: strange opening, reverse shoulder hit at 21, toothpaste at 36/38... weaker than me, and i'm 7k.
2: stronger that me, style looks textbookish, so probably amateur dan
3: 14 seems strange, 27 too. Looks also weaker than me, but there is only one 14k game. Both 1 and 3 contains big mistakes, but this one looks weaker than 1.
4: i honestly can't tell
5: same here

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #12 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:33 am 
Tengen
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1. 14k (Some crazy fails in the reading department time after time again)
2. 1d (So much aji keshi. But not 7k or 14k play)
3. 7k (The only obvious kyu game, and it doesn't have the epic fails of the 14k game IMO).
4. 5d (Wow, exciting stuff. It feels very strong, it also feels blitzish. Top right result was strong reading, but the game doesn't feel pro).
5. Pro (It has that feel for a number of individual move reasons.)

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #13 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:45 am 
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Game 1 - KGS 14k
Game 2 - KGS 1d
Game 3 - KGS 7k
Game 4 - Professionals
Game 5 - KGS 5d

For the professionals and kgs 5d I'm pretty much guessing..

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #14 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:45 am 
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topazg wrote:
1. 14k (Some crazy fails in the reading department time after time again)
2. 1d (So much aji keshi. But not 7k or 14k play)
3. 7k (The only obvious kyu game, and it doesn't have the epic fails of the 14k game IMO).
4. 5d (Wow, exciting stuff. It feels very strong, it also feels blitzish. Top right result was strong reading, but the game doesn't feel pro).
5. Pro (It has that feel for a number of individual move reasons.)


yeah topazg my mate ^-^ sitting in the same boat now, hope sol is giving the answer quickly :X

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #15 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:59 am 
Tengen
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Jonas wrote:
yeah topazg my mate ^-^ sitting in the same boat now, hope sol is giving the answer quickly :X


Hehe, yay, someone thinks like me :D

You criticise move 25 in game #1 (and fairly so) - but what about move 28? What about the real corker at 157?

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #16 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:27 am 
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Mmm... I've made my decision.

14k - unnecessary capturing? I sense much fear in you.
1d - The fighting is very lax for a dan player. As is the joseki knowledge and shape.
7k - Nobi! Nobi again! Nobi some more! Then capture when you don't have to.
5d - Mmm... definitely stronger than I am, I think... but looking closely, there were problems in life and death and endgame that I can pick out. Doesn't seem like pro play.
Pro - The flow and insight make this game different from the rest. I think this has to be the pro game.


I'm probably wrong on something...

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #17 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:31 am 
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My guesses:

1. 14k
2. 1d
3. 7k
4. 5d
5. Pro (Blitz)

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #18 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:34 am 
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topazg wrote:
You criticise move 25 in game #1 (and fairly so) - but what about move 28? What about the real corker at 157?


Ofc both moves look kinda ugly, but to be honest my judgement for all 5 games is only based on the first few moves:

Game1: I noticed that a weaker player must play here cause of 25, I think a 7k would not miss the shapemove r5. I stopped viewing the game directly after noticing #25 because I think looking further could have distracted my judgement.

Game2: Here are the moves #7 up to #25 and blacks handeling of the c16 group my hints, I can understand why they play like this but somehow it doesnt feel completly right to me, so I guess the players must be around my rank.

Game3: Invading the chinese opening like this is bad, the player must be a kyu. After seeing the intense struggle in the first 50 moves I doubt these players are 14k so the only option left is SDK (7k).

Game4: Most of the kyu players havent the guts to play a opening like this, therefore I think the player must at least be a dan. The fighting in the first moves looks to complicated to be Shodan, but for black to be squeezed like the sequence up to #79 seems unthinkable for a pro. I've seen similar situations in blitz-games of highdan players on kgs = 5d!

Game5: The only option left is Pro. As mentioned I've seen this kind of avalanche-tenuki opening many times by proplayers.

I havent watched any game any further then 100 moves... hmmm thinking about this it seems pretty interesting. It is really possible to feel such a difference in strenth with only seeing so few moves?

What were your 'final hints' ?

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #19 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:47 am 
Tengen
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Jonas wrote:
What were your 'final hints' ?


1 - The moves I indicated, and the capturing when you don't have to, and a couple of meaningless extensions gave me the hint on 1.

2 - I figured was dan fairly early, as despite having the weirdest opening there were some sensible moves protecting and defending. White's attempts to attack Black's top left group were bizarre, so I assumed high dan was unlikely. So much of this game felt like the players understood principles (key points, taking away eyeshape) but got carried away with trying to implement them cleverly everywhere. There ended up being lots of aji-keshi moves and bad aji in their own positions left.

3 - Move 27 at Q4? Have I ever seen so many odd slow extensions in a single game? Move 64 at N15? On the other hand, no gross reading blunders, so had to be 7k.

4 - Definitely stronger than me. But so much overplay / squeeze fight nonsense. White looked like he'd gone silly with the initial cut in the top right, then pulled off S17 very nicely. This is just felt like lots of powerful overplay from both sides where they both pulled off half of it. Kind of like uber-magicwands on speed.

5 - Just from Black's perspective: Move 13. Move 17. Sequence 29,31,33. Moves 35+37. Moves 39+41+43. Sequence 65-91, especially 79. Everything just feels so good - the flow, the direction, the time and position of tenuki, the lack of giving bad shape. This just screams pro to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess their rank: Strength analysis experiment.
Post #20 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:49 am 
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To me it looks like they are in ascending order of strength
  1. KGS 14k
  2. KGS 7k
  3. KGS 1d
  4. KGS 5d
  5. Pro
I feel quite sure about 14k and pro game, a little less about 7k and 1d. As most of the games are above my level, the frequency of tenuki may have been a major criterium for me. :)

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