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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #1 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:35 pm 
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Here's a game between two pros. Among the choices, where do you think that black played next?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O X . . . , c . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . a . O X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . b . . O . O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . . , . O . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #2 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:41 pm 
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B 100% sure

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #3 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Cool idea.

My guess is B. The two floating white groups seem like the most important thing to me, and keeping them seperated would be ideal. That leaves either A or B, and it's my feelings that A is too close to the white group and might give white a chance to still connect. To be honest though, that's just my guess :oops:

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #4 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:48 pm 
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C...

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Offline Harleqin
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #5 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:53 pm 
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'b'. It separates two weak groups.

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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #6 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:56 pm 
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b, keeping two weak groups separated, definitely looks right to me and is the move I would choose if this were a "guess the move" problem. I have a feeling things must not be that simple, though...
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #7 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:14 pm 
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'b', to split the two weak white groups. White would like to play at 'b' himself.

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Offline k1ndofblue
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #8 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:40 pm 
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I Like B. White has 2 weak groups that you want to keep seprated.
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Offline Tyson2011
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #9 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:42 pm 
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i'd play B for sure, D would probably be my second choice...

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #10 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:45 pm 
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I'll post the answer, along with the game tomorrow.

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Offline ketchup
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #11 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:28 pm 
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First C then A/D. I believe C holds the most favorable point for black as it seems to indirectly reinforce all of black's groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O X . . . , 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . . , . O . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I go by feel, and to me, I'd be very hasty to try to separate white's two weak groups, so I'll go with a patient move at C as the pro's play.

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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #12 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:50 pm 
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A. Black can launch a two-pronged attack on the two White groups in the lower left, so that leaves only A and B to consider. However, I think A has more merits than B:
  • It hits the soft spot of M7, it can almost be considered a vital point on the shape.
  • It threatens M8, which is a big momentum move. White would be painful in managing both groups when it's blocked from the top like that.
  • It also threatens K6, which is clearly dangerous.
  • In contrast, B doesn't really attack either group's shape. In fact, if B was at G6 instead of H6, I think it'd be harder to decide between A and B.
In conclusion, I think both A and B have the right idea, but in my humble opinion A executes the idea more elegantly.
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Offline SoDesuNe
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #13 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:10 am 
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Uhhh, 'a' or 'b'? First 'a' then split with 'b'? Hard decision. Probably both wrong. I go for 'b'.

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #14 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:52 am 
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B. A would on the surface have the option of building something in the center with C, though, but reading if it works is beyond me.

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Offline kirkmc
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #15 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:57 am 
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B looks obvious. That group on the left is not alive, and any attacking moves B plays, even if he doesn't kill, are freebies and get him influence. Also, if W plays B first, that gets him almost-connected to the floating center group. I don't see A as being as useful, as that bottom-center group is more-or-less out into the center.

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Offline zinger
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #16 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:31 am 
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These are great threads, I remember when Bill Spight posted a raft of them on GD.

Looks like white has two potential weaknesses, so splitting them seems right. b looks kind of wishy washy though, it doesn't really attack either group strongly. Plus it is close to black's very strong bottom group. Proverb say, play away from strength, right? So I will try a, which is more severe on the L6 group, and may end up working as a sort of leaning attack.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #17 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:34 am 
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A for me. It threatens to develop the middle, makes a followup at B (if White tenukis) very severe, and tries to force White to connect on dame while developing thickness. It's also a relatively key shape point.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #18 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:48 pm 
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I guess it's been long enough. The answer is...

A!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O X . . . , c . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . B . O X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . b . . O . O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . . , . O . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Congratulations to Araban, zinger, and topazg for selecting the same move that the pro played. I thought that this was an interesting move, because I think that I would have played "b" if I were black in this game.

The next moves in the game went like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 0 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 8 7 9 . . . . . . 1 X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . 4 . . . B . O X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . . , . O . . . X O O . |
$$ | . 5 X X X . . X . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O 1 . . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . 2 . X . O X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . . , . O . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X X . . X . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This game was played between Fujisawa Shuko 8p (white) and Sometani Kazuo 7p (black) in 1959. Komi was 4.5 points. White won the game by resignation.

Here's the SGF file:


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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #19 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
This game was played between Fujisawa Shuko 8p (white) and Sometani Kazuo 7p (black) in 1959. Komi was 4.5 points. White won the game by resignation.

See, that proves that my choice of b for Black was better!

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next pro move #1
Post #20 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:00 pm 
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a or b is the point of the position (splitting two weak groups), but I think it's good to force first at c to build background strength for the coming offensive. So I'm guessing c. I think b is better than a. d and e are inferior, with e being the worst. I think.


EDIT: oh, the answer's already been posted, hehe. Instant gratification!

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Last edited by daniel_the_smith on Thu May 13, 2010 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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