Hey everybody,

I had always thought that the word “sensei” is (mostly) used as an honorary word, appended to the name of the adressee, and also used to denote a third person as being a great/master teacher … perhaps even more as a personal statement like “s/he is _my_ teacher”.

This led to some irritation on my side when I recently read that some person is promoting their Go teaching by calling themselves “[soandso] sensei”. I would not feel the same irritation if the person would just call themselves a “Go teacher”, but this sounds to me just like somebody saying they are a “guru”, while again—for me—the word “guru” is something quite personal, I have a hard time accepting it if anybody calls somebody “_a_” guru instead of “_my_ guru”. For me, sensei/guru does not exist outside of a personal teacher/student relationship.

If you are familiar with the Japanese culture and language … what’s your opinion here? Am I wrong in assuming that calling oneself (a) “sensei” is quite some vanity? Is it widely acceptable to use “sensei” just like “teacher”? (In which case probably I myself am the vain person and should gauge down my level of moralinic acid )


TIA, and wishing you all (and everybody else) a peaceful and happy [whatever you celebrate],

Tom

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

I prefer Satguru, myself.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This is a can of worms. Very many Japanese find the use of sensei for go and shogi players odd. So much so that, around 1980 I believe, NHK instructed its games-show comperes to address players as so-and-so Meijin or so-and-so 9-dan instead of the then usual so-and-so sensei. The problem arose because the compere was invariably a low-dan, young, female go or shogi pro who, within the go or shogi world, was used to saying sensei as the players on the programme would normally be higher ranked and older. No doubt the instruction, if still in force, is breached now and then, but I'd imagine the prevalence of teeny-boppers among the top players nowadays would make the use of sensei stick in the craw of even more people.

It is a mark of respect within the go world, from the days when pupils in a go school would literally be taught by the "earlier born pupils" (the meaning of sensei), and many amateur fans, but by no means all, have latched on to this usage. But to use it within the go world of yourself is a silly solecism - or over here, a case of oriental kitsch, somewhat similar to martial artists here calling themselves sifu.

But outside the go and shogi worlds the word sensei can be used as a generic word for teacher. Since it takes the full range of plural markers (-tachi, -ra- -gata, -domo) it is clearly not meant to be exclusively personal, and since pejorative phrases such as 'demoshika sensei' (a teacher of sorts) exist, it is clearly not always meant to be a mark of esteem.

What happens when the inside and outside worlds collide? The Japanese have a wide range of structures to bypass the need to refer to someone directly while still being very polite (e.g. the o-VERB-I form as in o-kaeri desu ka - are you leaving), and there's never anything wrong with saying -san instead. Indeed, I have heard that there is a growing tendency even in ordinary schools for pupils now to refer to teachers as so-and-so san.

Even that only scratches at the surface, though. One subtle area is the juncture between name and sensei (or other title). Some (most?) people make a distinction between omitting and retaining the juncture. If you swallow up the juncture it implies the person is very famous. If you leave the (minor) juncture, it implies the person is not famous.

It's a little bit like our newspaper splash-boards. "Fred Astaire dies" tells us Fred Astaire was very famous. "Hollywood star dies" tells us he wasn't a star but you might vaguely recognise his face. In go and shogi perhaps the most famous example of this swallowed juncture was the shogi Meijin Oyama Yasuharu, who died in 1992. Even among people who didn't play shogi he was always known as OyamaMeijin (rather than Oyama Meijin). I've never heard ChoMeijin or SakataHoninbo among the populace at large, though I have sometimes heard TakagawaHoninbo. However, though again only within the go world, sensei without the juncture is often heard (if appropriate).

BTW, OyamaMeijin, whom I was fortunate enough to meet, brought shogi one distinction over go in that (as far as I know) he's the only Japanese games player to get an obit in a major UK newspaper - The Independent.

Generally in Japanese culture people don't use any honorifics/title words when referring to themselves or groups they belong to. On the other hand, there are some professions where it is expected to refer to a group of people as sensei (not just a personal teacher). For example: doctors, lawyers, politicians. Sensei can also be used as a standalone word which is probably where the confusion arises... however I believe it's still rare for people to refer to themselves in that way. More often, Japanese folk will choose a less direct description/approach.

From Wikipedia:
"Satguru (Sanskrit: सदगुरू), or sadguru, means the true guru. However the term is distinguished from other forms of gurus, such as musical instructors, scriptural teachers, parents, and so on. The satguru is a title given specifically only to an enlightened rishi/sant whose life's purpose is to guide initiated shishya along the spiritual path, the summation of which is the realization of the Self through realization of God, who is omnipresent..."

While I have the greatest respect for your knowledge (not just in Go), Bill. This bit about 'realization of God' may, I say again may, be just a bit overly confident on your part.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

That's why I waited so long to reveal myself.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

In real life too.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

It does happen, namely in the US Go world, which is why I asked here, even their Twitter acct is named “[So-and-so] Sensei”.

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

Perhaps they are using the alternative version of sensei: Some Eccentric Nerd Serving Egocentric Interests.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Hi Bonobo, how do you feel if people ask others to refer to themselves with the Mr. prefix ? Do you know what's the situation in German ?

I feel the same about that … it just sounds stupid to me. IMO people “should” just say their names, and (usually) others would, in most situations, know how to address them.

Marcel already answered, but I don’t agree 100% with it:

Well, some people actually do so. I’ve lectured/taught/instructed in adult education for about ten years, and I have often heard colleagues introduce themselves to participants of courses as “Herr X” and “Frau Y” — and, interestingly, these were (IMNSHO) that kind of teachers who have (who actually ARE) an authority problem (i.e. who act in an authoritarian way and feel the need to show their place in a strict hierarchy instead of just being an authority on basis of what they know and who they are).

When I introduce myself, I say “I am [first name last name]” (more seldom “my name is …), which is who I believe I am. I am NOT “Herr Rohde”, that’s how people address me (if they don’t just call me “Tom”, which I usually prefer).

OTOH if I introduce somebody else, I might say “this is Herr/Frau XY”, but not necessarily so, I usually say “this is [first name] [last name]” since (again usually) people know how to address people appropriately for a situation. It has NEVER happened to me that people addressed me in any situationally “inappropriate” way (and no, I don’t believe that I am an awe-inspiring or frightening person).

Yeah <sigh>

Thing is, people who have achieved these titles are exactly this: entitled … to be called “Herr/Frau Professor Doctor XY”, i.e. they have a right to insist on this, but IMNSHO people who really insist (every time) are usually the same kind of jerks I have mentioned above re: “authority problem”.

Yeah, that’s how vermin (have to) treat (demi)gods, right?


BTW I can’t really recommend this habit of distinguishing between “authority” and “authoritarian behaviour” except if you want to be a PITA for authoritarian people … because this will most probably prevent any progress in hierarchical systems — except if you’re an authority. But sometimes even then.


Reminds me of this:

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

<Ingrid>

What came to my mind after returning to this thread (thanks, Marcel) is that there probably is some cultural difference between Austria and Germany, inasmuch as AT, to me, i.e. seen from the outside, seems to be a land of courtesy, while Germans are not exactly known for having invented politeness, modesty, and humility (this I know both from inside and outside of Germany).

</Ingrid>

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

Hi Tom, I feel similarly as you do.

Thanks, Ed, I really appreciate you saying this

_/\_ Tom

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

I usually just introduce myself as Steve Fawthrop, or sometimes just Steve. Away from the university I would never think of adding any title. I am sure most people are not even aware that I have one. At the university I also introduce myself that way with staff and faculty, but at the start of each course I tell the students I am Dr. Steve Fawthrop, giving my full name, and expect them to address me as Dr. Fawthrop. Many of them do, but some will call me Mr. Fawthrop. I generally find that those whose parents attended college or who are in their third or fourth year will use Dr., those who are new, first generation will use Mr.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

As for this thread, I find it a tad silly to get worked up about this. I would assume that this guy (or girl, hermaphrodite, etc.) is simply using "sensei" as a synonym for "teacher", with a slight Japanophile tint (as is common in Western go circles).
If someone called himself "go teacher", I'd assume it is because he is teaching go, not because he wants to adorn himself with false laurels implied by the term "teacher".

And even supposing the person in question is fluent in Japanese cultural etiquette regarding the term "sensei", one could still argue that his target audience likely is not. Therefore, as the person has already been revealed to be aiming at an anglophone market, I don't see much point in discussing the "true" connotations carried by the Japanese word "sensei".

When I heard someone in my go-club refer to someone else (also in the club) as his "sensei", I thought it was a bit weird, but the idea was simply that of indicating some form of teacher-student relationship between the two, however casual. I believe I've observed similar usage on KGS.


Loanwords don't necessarily mean what they meant in the original language.
As an example, Germans say "handy" (English pronunciation) to mean "mobile phone".
A borderline topical quote to finish:

I find it extremely annoying, on the verge of insulting, that you quote me to express this opinion. You must not have been in an academic environment at any significant level. I was not, by any means, expressing annoyance or approbration, but merely trying to add something to the discussion. I thought I made it clear that, unless the title has some significant in the current environment, it is meaningless.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Hi Tom, I have a friend, let's call him John Smith, he has a doctorate and has been teaching at the university level in America for at least a decade, I think. The following is my paraphrase of part of his introduction to his students on the first day of class:

"Welcome to Course 101. My name is John Smith. (After some introduction about the course, administrative business, etc. ) You can call me John, or Dr. Smith, or professor Smith. Although sometimes when I hear "professor Smith," I think someone is addressing my dad. At a university, it's never wrong to address your teacher as "professor". ( He's using the 2nd definition of 'professor' on Google search, 'a university teacher [North America]'. ) Of course, if they tell you that you can call them by their first name, that's OK, too. "

I have another friend, let's call him Joe Doe, he had been teaching at a university in America for 20 some years, was the chairman of the department for about a decade, and eventually retired in 2009 (now professor emeritus). I was one of his teaching assistants for about 10 years. In all that time, he only introduced himself as "I'm Joe Doe." on the first day of class. And he let his students call him as professor Doe, or just Joe. My estimate is 95% of his students just called him Joe.


( Local time Sun Dec 28, 2014. 10:54 am )

Hi Tom, a few nights ago, I saw an NHK documentary about Japanese sword polishing. It was very interesting (for me). The tradition is still being passed on in Japan from one generation to the next, from a master to the apprentices. The pupils call their teacher sensei, and the teacher refers to his own teacher as sensei. It's very nice.

In this particular episode, the mastercraftsman's sensei happened to be a national treasure of Japan. The mastercraftsman said, "After all these years, no matter how hard I've tried, I can never surpass Sensei. But I'm hoping my pupils will."

( Local time Sun Dec 28, 2014. 11:34 am )

i think this is a weird western problem clash with eastern cultures.

i've known my go teacher for the longest time and i pretty much only call her "laoshi". her other students will call her by her first name, but it's just not in me
the same idea is with the japanese pros i've interacted with, only i add "-san" to their names. But that's because they're not really my teacher. I'd never really dare call them by just their last name.

the easiest analogue i can give is like knowing your friend's dad as "Mr. Jones" since birth. You can't easily call them "John" later on after having that concept of "Mr. Jones"
so for me with anybody i'm in a "lower" ranking with (student/teacher-wise), they're immediately "-laoshi","-sensei","-san".