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 Post subject: Shapes
Post #1 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:01 am 
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How do you make good shapes or know how to do it?

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Post #2 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:43 am 
Judan
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Hi Glummie,

Some sample discussions: MakingGoodShape

You can also have your games reviewed
( the quality of the review matters ).

Top human games have many examples of efficient shapes.
( AlphaZero games have shapes that are beyond top human understanding. )

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #3 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:19 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi Glummie,

Some sample discussions: MakingGoodShape

You can also have your games reviewed
( the quality of the review matters ).

Top human games have many examples of efficient shapes.
( AlphaZero games have shapes that are beyond top human understanding. )



Hi, thanks for the prompt response. Is that book the best for shapes study?

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #4 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:57 am 
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Hey Glummie,

i don't know which book is the best on that topic, but here is another one: ShapeUp (Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0)

You can use this article as an entry point, too: Shape

This video by dsaun gets recommended often

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #5 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:45 am 
Gosei
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“Shape Up” by revered L19 member Charles Matthews is a good suggestion indeed, but I’d recommend to use this (AFAIK latest) edition: http://cdn.online-go.com/shape_up.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #6 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Thanks for the suggestions!

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #7 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:42 am 
Tengen

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For beginner intro to shape I recommend these 2:
- https://senseis.xmp.net/?LameDuGo
- https://senseis.xmp.net/?HaengMaTutorialForBeginners

(Shape Up is good but probably too hard for a 25k).

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #8 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:50 am 
Judan

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Here are some threads about shape. :)

forum/viewtopic.php?t=8136

viewtopic.php?t=13527

viewtopic.php?t=11896

I highly recommend the first one. It was started by a beginner who was very good at hosting interesting and instructive discussions. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #9 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:18 am 
Tengen
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I like https://senseis.xmp.net/?GoodShape, particularly the last paragraph.

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #10 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
For beginner intro to shape I recommend these 2:
- https://senseis.xmp.net/?LameDuGo
- https://senseis.xmp.net/?HaengMaTutorialForBeginners

(Shape Up is good but probably too hard for a 25k).


Was Fan Hui's book ever translated or is it just this one chapter?

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #11 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:42 pm 
Tengen

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I'm not aware of the whole book being translated to English.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: paK0
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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #12 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:43 pm 
Judan

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This may be a bit advanced for this thread, but I have a comment about Fan Hui's example, the so-called ripped tobi. Here is the diagram for it from Sensei's Library.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c A ripped tobi
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


The problem, as I see it, is that it is on the third line. Presumably Black will play :b1:, else if White plays there the Black shape is really, really, really bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Joseki
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


:b6: makes a ripped tobi. Bad shape, eh? Not at all, because it is on the third line. That means that whichever way White cuts, Black can capture the cutting stone.

I sympathize. It is not easy to construct good, specific examples of general concepts.

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Shapes
Post #13 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:35 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Here are some threads about shape. :)

https://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8136

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=13527

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11896

I highly recommend the first one. It was started by a beginner who was very good at hosting interesting and instructive discussions. :)


Thanks buddy!

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