It is currently Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:53 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:30 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 42
Liked others: 65
Was liked: 6
Hi,

I've been following several people's suggestion to play "basic" go here:
https://www.crazy-sensei.com/location=rules

(End up with more stones on the board than the computer.)

There is a 5x5 game (scroll down to "Let's play!") and I worked my way from a handicap of 5 to 0 (ridiculous, but lots of fun and I'm a bit proud).

Question:
I am able to beat the bot 23:0, but only if I get tengen.

Otherwise the bot takes tengen and wins (not by capturing, but simply by having more stones on the board).

I've tried, but I can't find a way to win without tengen.

Could someone please have a look and tell me (honestly) if there is a solution (win more stones than bot or even beat to 0) with the bot having tengen?

(If there is one, don't tell me yet. I just want to know if it is worth trying harder or if my impression that whoever has tengen wins is correct.)

Thanks!!
And another thanks to lightvector for the link and to Knotwilg for advising the same idea!

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:09 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 435
Liked others: 40
Was liked: 140
I tried once and beat the computer taking black with 0 handicap, and starting with the 3-2 point, but the AI is not too strong so I don't know if a stronger AI would have won.


This post by jlt was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:37 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 35
Liked others: 63
Was liked: 26
Rank: Euro 1 dan
GD Posts: 7
I tried playing that bot with black, 0 handicap. If I play tengen or 3-2 I always win and can capture all white stones. If I play 2-2 I almost always win too, but I can see it is not playing the best moves, so I am not sure if I should win.

I am not sure what is most useful to you, to continue studying 5 x 5 or maybe move to 9 x 9. Probably does not matter in the long term, if you keep playing.


This post by zermelo was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:04 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8522
Liked others: 2488
Was liked: 2948
Well, here is an sgf file with a number of variations. :)

Not to spoil your fun, but if you start on a 3-2 pt. and White plays tengen, the bot probably makes a mistake against Black's next play, assuming it is best.



Edit: Can't we get this thing to show a 5x5 board?

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins


Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:06 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 324
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 68
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
KGS: Pio2001
I just beat it 23-0 while it got the tengen.

The trick : count the liberties of all your groups. I had to play a move that seemed dangerous, but I knew it was safe because my strings had 3 and 4 liberties while the string of the bot had only 2. Therefore I was sure that I could capture it before it captures me.


This post by Pio2001 was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:46 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 42
Liked others: 65
Was liked: 6
:clap: :bow:

Don't know if I was really hoping that it is possible :lol:

I'll take this as my holiday project (if I have broadband).

And, well, it sounds like I should learn some, some reading (counting liberties? What?? :shock: ).

:salute:

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:55 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 42
Liked others: 65
Was liked: 6
Uhm, stupid question (another):

I'm not familiar with the notation in numbers.

So, 3-2 means what?
Row - column?
And, if so, do we start counting with the first line?

So "D 15" would be "4-5"?
(I looked at Bill's SGF, first move only - is this a "4-3" or a "3-2"?)

And does this notation go until "19-19" (if not doing tsumego or joseki that might be rotated for practice)?

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:06 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 435
Liked others: 40
Was liked: 140
The 3-2 points are marked in this diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------+
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . |
$$ | . C . C . |
$$ | . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ +-----------+[/go]


In the diagram below, the white group has 3 liberties (marked by triangles), and the black group has 6 liberties.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------+
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . |
$$ | . T O X . |
$$ | . T O T . |
$$ +-----------+[/go]


This post by jlt was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is there only one solution for this 5x5?
Post #9 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:29 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8522
Liked others: 2488
Was liked: 2948
Jika wrote:
Uhm, stupid question (another):


Not stupid at all. :)

Quote:
I'm not familiar with the notation in numbers.

So, 3-2 means what?
Row - column?


Either, unless specified.

Quote:
And, if so, do we start counting with the first line?


Yes.

Quote:
So "D 15" would be "4-5"?


Or 5-4, unless the distinction mattered. :)

Quote:
(I looked at Bill's SGF, first move only - is this a "4-3" or a "3-2"?)


We usually use smaller numbers. So on a 5x5 board we usually say 2 instead of 4, 1 instead of 5. Unless the distinction matters.

Quote:
And does this notation go until "19-19"


Yes, on a 19x19 board, if it matters.

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group