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 Post subject: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #1 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:21 am 
Lives with ko

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Black to play. Play the best pincer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


I've clicked on all intersections around :black: and :white: , but none was correct.
Help? Thanks!!

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #2 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:25 am 
Lives in gote
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Strange. Did you really try all intersections from a to f? The standard pincer is "a", but in some cases, other choices are possible.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . b d f .
$$ | . . . . . O . a c e .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


Last edited by jlt on Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #3 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:29 am 
Judan

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Best pincer? That's an overly specific question. A pincer, sure?

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #4 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:54 am 
Honinbo

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Jika wrote:
Black to play. Play the best pincer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


I've clicked on all intersections around :black: and :white: , but none was correct.
Help? Thanks!!


The question is BS. Don't worry about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #5 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:19 am 
Oza
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The "best" pincer, without reference to the rest of the board, has no meaning. Especially since the bots have been telling us for the last three years that fundamentally we should not want to pincer. Where did you get the question and what have you been clicking in to try to find the answer?

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #6 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:38 am 
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Jika, do you not have anyone who will sit down and play go with you?

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I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.

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Post #7 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:02 am 
Honinbo
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Quote:
do you not have anyone who will sit down and play go with you?
Hi David, I don't know about Jika's situation, but statistically, for most places, this is not feasible.

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #8 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:53 am 
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@jlt:
All your suggestions a-e are considered correct :oops:

@ez4u:
I'm getting those regular stupid questions from 321go
The exercise before that one was to pick one of 3-4 suggested intersections as "best move";
now they leave the solution open, I'm lost.
I tried between the black and white stone, and around the white stone (because of pincer, yes).
But, obviously, I did not try far enough.
I'm thinking now, pincer means "taking the white stone between two black stones".
But I thought it would be closer to the white, like squashing it to the side or the bottom, directly squeezing it...

@bogiesan:
I play go, I ride a recumbent (trike), of course I use a Tuxedo (Linux-optimized hardware)

And, no, I have nobody to play go with.
But - I might have soon!!
A friend saw my board yesterday and mentioned "oh, I've had one like that [mine is cardboard] for years, but never managed to learn how to play. Are the rules complicated?" - "Noooo, the rules are really simple!" :D

If you meant: An experienced player? No. There is a group in the nearest university town, but they play in the evenings, when buses are rare, I have no car, and a cab/taxi costs 47,- Euro ONE WAY.

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #9 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:58 am 
Judan

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https://senseis.xmp.net/?Pincer


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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #10 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:37 am 
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Common continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . O . X . . .
$$ | . . 7 5 6 8 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #11 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:11 am 
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@Uberdude: Thanks - but looking this up I'm getting really confused (seeing counter-pincers and high vs low pincers) about the use of "high" and "low".
Are low pincers the ones on the same line as the pincered stone, and high ones the line closer to the centre, on the line of the uhm, stone of the same colour?

So, a,b,c would be low, d,e,f high?

@flt: Could you please explain a bit?
I can't see when/where the pincer happened in your diagram. What move number, please?

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #12 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:23 am 
Honinbo

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Jika wrote:
@Uberdude: Thanks - but looking this up I'm getting really confused (seeing counter-pincers and high vs low pincers) about the use of "high" and "low".
Are low pincers the ones on the same line as the pincered stone, and high ones the line closer to the centre, on the line of the uhm, stone of the same colour?

So, a,b,c would be low, d,e,f high?

@flt: Could you please explain a bit?
I can't see when/where the pincer happened in your diagram. What move number, please?


Typically a "low" pincer is on the 3rd line. A "high" pincer is on the 4th line. This is if you count the lines, starting from the edge of the board (the edge is line number 1).

Generally speaking, a pincer can be played to prevent the opponent from forming a base with his stone. In the original problem, white approached the black 4-4 stone. If black responds on the left, white has the freedom to extend along the bottom to make a base (i.e. a safe group).

A pincer messes with white's potential to make a base, inducing white to choose a different option.

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #13 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:35 am 
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@Jika: the pincer wasn't numbered. I reproduce the diagram and mark the pincer with a circle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . O . B . . .
$$ | . . 7 5 6 8 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #14 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:36 am 
Judan

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Low pincers are on the 3rd line (from the edge, so a/c/e in jlt's diagram), high are on the 4th line (b/d/f). A pincer is a move on the other side of the opponent stone from where your existing stone(s) are: you are approaching it from 2 sides, like a pincer movement in a battle.

So :b3: here is a pincer: black has stones on either side of white :w2:. The main strategic thing a pincer does is make it hard for the pincered stone to extend along the side in the direction of the pincer to make a base (space for eyes and thus safety) in that direction.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


Compare to if black just answered with patient knight move :b3: , white could extend on side to make a base:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


A counter pincer is a move which pincers the pincer :) So :w4: could be described as a counter-pincer, because it pincers :b3: with :w2: and :w4:. It stops :b3: from extending along the side around there to make a base. But it didn't help :w2: and is separate from it so black could just link up at a to make his stones safe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So if white wants to attack :b3: it is important to separate it from :b1: first. So white could jump out, black probably defends at :b5: (or one to left) and then white can counter-pincer at :w6: and :b3: can't connect to :b1: / :b5: . With these kind of pincer and then counter-pincer moves it is common for running fights to develop, with both players having groups which are weak.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #15 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:02 am 
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Thank you all!

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #16 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Jika wrote:
@bogiesan:
And, no, I have nobody to play go with.
But - I might have soon!!
A friend saw my board yesterday and mentioned "oh, I've had one like that [mine is cardboard] for years, but never managed to learn how to play. Are the rules complicated?" - "Noooo, the rules are really simple!" :D


I appreciate your situation, I think most of us have suffered through similar. Best of luck getting your friend to play!

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I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.

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 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #17 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:04 pm 
Honinbo

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bogiesan wrote:
Jika wrote:
@bogiesan:
And, no, I have nobody to play go with.
But - I might have soon!!
A friend saw my board yesterday and mentioned "oh, I've had one like that [mine is cardboard] for years, but never managed to learn how to play. Are the rules complicated?" - "Noooo, the rules are really simple!" :D


I appreciate your situation, I think most of us have suffered through similar. Best of luck getting your friend to play!


If that doesn’t work, I’ll play you online sometime if you’d like. Or we can play a Malkovich game here ;-)

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