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 Post subject: Question about a Tsumego
Post #1 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:22 pm 
Dies in gote
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When i was doing some Tsumego on OGS i stumbled across the following problem: https://online-go.com/puzzle/15017

There are a few variations to this and in the one, where white connects at R17, black T17 and then white S19 the solution states, that black can live with either A, B or C...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X a |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]




...but i can not really find a way for black to live with any of those options.


A: After :b1: , :w2: hits the vital point:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black can try, but nothing seems to work out:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 4 2 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]




B: After :b1: white answers with :w2: and again i can't find out how black is supposed to live here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 a b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X c |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Neither A, nor B serve the task and because white has an Atari at A, things like C into B also don't quite work out, as it seems.


C: Similar to B. After white plays the vital point black seems to be shut down:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X c |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 a b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If black answers at A, white will play Hane into C, after black blocks and if black B, white C does the job immediately. If black plays see i would think that white B kills the black group.




Most of the problems of this collection are well above my current skill, so i wouldn't be surprised if i overlooked some obvious things, but i would be very interested to know what those things are :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #2 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:57 pm 
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How do you get to that position? I looked at the puzzle and the correct answer never gets to the position you show.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #3 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:21 pm 
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I agree, the puzzle looks flawed to me. I haven't used the OGS problem interface much: there isn't a way to browse the variations, other than resetting the puzzle over and over again and trying different responses?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ------------+
$$ . . . . O . |
$$ O . O O X X |
$$ . O . O O X |
$$ . . O O X O |
$$ . . O X X a |
$$ . O X . 3 . |
$$ . O X b 2 . |
$$ . O X X X 1 |
$$ . O O O O . |
$$ . . , . O . |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]


After B3, it played white 'a' which looks like a mistake. I can't see a way to live after white 'b' instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #4 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:27 pm 
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yoyoma wrote:
How do you get to that position? I looked at the puzzle and the correct answer never gets to the position you show.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ------------+
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ O . 4 O 3 5 |
$$ . 2 1 B O . |
$$ . . O O X O |
$$ . . O X X . |
$$ . O X . . . |
$$ . O X . . . |
$$ . O X X X . |
$$ . O O O O . |
$$ . . , . O . |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]


:w6: at :bc:

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #5 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:08 pm 
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00Noles wrote:
C: Similar to B. After white plays the vital point black seems to be shut down:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X c |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 a b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]




Oops, what I said below is completely wrong.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black lives in seki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 4 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Last edited by jlt on Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #6 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:00 am 
Lives in sente
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jlt wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black lives in seki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 4 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Really ???
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O 8 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #7 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:22 am 
Dies in gote
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@yoyoma & xela

You just have to play T18 over and over again. Sometimes white will hane at T12, sometimes connect T17 and then sometimes play R17, which will lead to this position. Unfortunately i could not find a way to look at or download the sgf tree.
After i had played around with the puzzle for a good while i reset it, to play from the start und white kept playing the hane.. for a second there i thought i was hallucinating over a variation that was not in the original problem for the previous 30min or so :lol: (OGS seems to add replies you play after a finished position to the problem tree, as i noticed before).



@jlt

As Cassandra pointed out the Seki does not really work, because of the cutting point in blacks position. I tried a similar result after black replies at C, but i never worked, because of whites atari at A:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 4 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O a |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #8 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:22 am 
Lives in gote
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Oops...

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #9 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:52 am 
Dies in gote

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Could this be an unfinished problem? I played with it a bit and many branches, even promising ones just say "incorrect" without explanations, once I even had an "incorrect" message in a position that was already alive. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #10 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:45 am 
Lives in sente

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jann wrote:
...... once I even had an "incorrect" message in a position that was already alive. ......


Depending on the problem setter, this IS possible. For example, if the problem is "black move and live" there might be several possibilities that left black alive. But living in seki might be marked wrong if it was possible to live with points or live in gote marked wrong if it was possible to live in sente, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #11 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:46 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #12 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:13 am 
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Probably the author saw the "seki" and didn't bother double checking his solution further. I will admit my first instinct on seeing the position was "no, he's mistaken, this must be alive", but no, it isn't.

Mike Novack wrote:
jann wrote:
...... once I even had an "incorrect" message in a position that was already alive. ......


Depending on the problem setter, this IS possible. For example, if the problem is "black move and live" there might be several possibilities that left black alive. But living in seki might be marked wrong if it was possible to live with points or live in gote marked wrong if it was possible to live in sente, etc.


Or even simply sacrificing some stones to live while you don't have to (a particularly amusing situation is when due to a sacrifice the seki variation is worth more points than the "alive with points" variation).

(Also I personally think that in situation which you have the choice between making a ko or a seki you haven't solved the problem unless you've seen both variations).

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 Post subject: Re: Question about a Tsumego
Post #13 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:57 am 
Dies in gote

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None of these seems too relevant given the problems to make any life here.

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