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 Post subject: When to resign?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:16 am 
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I never know if white will resign to me because of how horribly I play or if somehow I have set myself up well for a victory because I feel like I have some good influence and territory being set up but i just too much of a greenhorn to truly understand.
Since I am still learning and don't have a definitive understanding of every move I play I am assuming it is the former but I never know. I would like any thoughts on this and I appreciate any teaching games that come my way. Domer on GoPanda and KGS.


Last edited by Domer on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #2 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:21 am 
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If you don't know why they resigned then just take the win and be happy. It still happens to me and that's what I do. :D


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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #3 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:52 am 
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Just resign when you think you don't have a chance.

That doesn't mean "oh if i "trick" him here i can win", it means "i don't think there is any place i can play regularly and win"

If you're playing a teaching game, let them decide when you should resign.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #4 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:04 pm 
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often wrote:
If you're playing a teaching game, let them decide when you should resign.


If unsure, it's also quite appropriate for the weaker player to ask if they should resign in a teaching game. You may or may not get a definite answer, depending on the teacher, but you may get a good explanation of the relationships of the various groups, rough counts of territory and potential, etc. that you may not be able to judge as well as the teacher. You may also hear that despite that situation over there that you didn't like, or this lost group, you're still doing fine. Teaching games aren't played for the outcome, so much as the process and the explanation/review.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #5 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:05 pm 
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often wrote:
Just resign when you think you don't have a chance.

That doesn't mean "oh if i "trick" him here i can win", it means "i don't think there is any place i can play regularly and win"

Actually that's the opposite of how it's generally done. Haven't you ever heard of "Looking for a Place to Resign?"

You play a move or moves that might be difficult to respond correctly to. Once your opponent does respond correctly, you resign.

Also, you shouldn't be upset by your opponent attempting to play for "tricks" in the end of a losing game. Why shouldn't they try to trick you? It might turn a lost game into a won game. And for you, if you do fall for the trick, hopefully you'll get an opportunity to learn from it so it doesn't happen again. If anything it is more rude to play normally for the rest of the game, only to lose by 20 points in the end. That's just a waste of time for both players.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:12 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
Actually that's the opposite of how it's generally done. Haven't you ever heard of "Looking for a Place to Resign?"


Woah, woah, woah... that's an advanced topic you're discussing there ;). Somewhat more seriously, the weaker the players, the greater the possibility of a game-swinging blunder, so it's harder to tell when you're going to lose as opposed to just currently behind.

Quote:
If anything it is more rude to play normally for the rest of the game, only to lose by 20 points in the end. That's just a waste of time for both players.

As I know I've heard before, if you can't win with normal endgame moves, and you play normal endgame moves, your moves are wrong. That said, depending on the level of the players, a 20 point difference may be gigantic, or it may be pretty close, so I'm hesitant to arbitrarily assign a numerical value like this.


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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #7 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:27 pm 
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often wrote:
Just resign when you think you don't have a chance.

That doesn't mean "oh if i "trick" him here i can win", it means "i don't think there is any place i can play regularly and win"

If you're playing a teaching game, let them decide when you should resign.


People tend to resign when they are able to read the game to the last move, see themselves losing, and are certain that their opponent can see that final board as well. What this means is, you should be trying all the tricks you have before resigning. Not doing so is something I find vaguely disrespectful and offensive. If you don't see that you've lost, why should you be resigning? If you're not sure the opponent really sees the final board, test him, make a trap that tests if they truly understand the board position. Not doing that seems lazy, like, you're abandoning the game, not because you lost, but because you couldn't bother trying to win. Such wins leave a sour taste in everyone's mouths. It should be crystal clear for both players who's the winner when you resign, resigning before that seems like hostile mind-trick. Like, if you resign on 5th move.

Just being behind is not nearly a reason enough. You need to be able to read all the way to the final board. If you can't, you shouldn't be resigning. For beginners, this usually means that you shouldn't be resigning at all. That's what is expected of you.

Would be nice if go servers offered some kind of button that if you resign, your opponent may demand you continue playing from that position but with colors swapped. Would teach players not to resign early.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #8 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:41 pm 
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StlenVlr wrote:
Would be nice if go servers offered some kind of button that if you resign, your opponent may demand you continue playing from that position but with colors swapped. Would teach players not to resign early.


Uh no...


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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #9 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:41 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
often wrote:
Just resign when you think you don't have a chance.

That doesn't mean "oh if i "trick" him here i can win", it means "i don't think there is any place i can play regularly and win"

Actually that's the opposite of how it's generally done. Haven't you ever heard of "Looking for a Place to Resign?"

You play a move or moves that might be difficult to respond correctly to. Once your opponent does respond correctly, you resign.

Also, you shouldn't be upset by your opponent attempting to play for "tricks" in the end of a losing game. Why shouldn't they try to trick you? It might turn a lost game into a won game. And for you, if you do fall for the trick, hopefully you'll get an opportunity to learn from it so it doesn't happen again. If anything it is more rude to play normally for the rest of the game, only to lose by 20 points in the end. That's just a waste of time for both players.


I tend to take the same approach as Often when I'm behind, and I think that actually is pretty common and preferred by many, but I do think both approaches are valid. I completely agree that this is the best time to try some crazy stuff that probably won't work but you can't tell for sure. It's a chance to be creative and test yourself in unusual situations, which is surely enjoyable and likely educational for both players.

There are only two situations I consider it inappropriate not to resign and those are:

1) You know you're not going to win and just go through the motions playing out the rest of the game with no attempts (underhanded or otherwise) to catch up.
- If you don't know you can't win that's fair enough, no matter how embarrassingly obvious the point difference is. I only have a problem with people that aren't actually trying to win. (unless they've asked their opponent for permission to keep playing)
2) Your opponent is in sudden death so you keep playing endlessly until they inevitably time out.
- This is a bit of a hazy one since I have absolutely no problem with the people who say that time management is part of the game. If someone uses a lot of thinking time to gain an early lead they should expect their opponent to try and take advantage of this, but I do think this can be taken too far. At the very least I think we can all agree that if you play on after the game would normally have gone in to counting then you're being rude.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #10 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:49 pm 
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StlenVlr wrote:
often wrote:
Just resign when you think you don't have a chance.

That doesn't mean "oh if i "trick" him here i can win", it means "i don't think there is any place i can play regularly and win"

If you're playing a teaching game, let them decide when you should resign.


People tend to resign when they are able to read the game to the last move, see themselves losing, and are certain that their opponent can see that final board as well. What this means is, you should be trying all the tricks you have before resigning. Not doing so is something I find vaguely disrespectful and offensive. If you don't see that you've lost, why should you be resigning? If you're not sure the opponent really sees the final board, test him, make a trap that tests if they truly understand the board position. Not doing that seems lazy, like, you're abandoning the game, not because you lost, but because you couldn't bother trying to win. Such wins leave a sour taste in everyone's mouths. It should be crystal clear for both players who's the winner when you resign, resigning before that seems like hostile mind-trick. Like, if you resign on 5th move.

Just being behind is not nearly a reason enough. You need to be able to read all the way to the final board. If you can't, you shouldn't be resigning. For beginners, this usually means that you shouldn't be resigning at all. That's what is expected of you.

Would be nice if go servers offered some kind of button that if you resign, your opponent may demand you continue playing from that position but with colors swapped. Would teach players not to resign early.


I have to say I disagree with pretty much this entire post. There are just so many viable ways that a game can develop that reading it out to the end is really only possible in the endgame, and even then it can be a very high level exercise, but you don't have to be able to read everything out to be confident you're going to lose. Also, "this game is no longer fun" is a perfectly valid reason for a resignation.


Last edited by Splatted on Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #11 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Domer wrote:
I never know if white will resign to me because of how horribly I play or if somehow I have set myself up well for a victory because I feel like I have some good influence and territory being set up but i just too much of a greenhorn to truly understand.
Since I am still learning and don't have a definitive understanding of every move I play I am assuming it is the former but I never know. I would like any thoughts on this and I appreciate any teaching games that come my way. Domer on GoPanda and KGS.
Simple Rule: Resign when you want to resign.

Moralizing over the etiquette of resignation timing is asinine. If you are playing on only to annoy your opponent, that's bad because your motives would be sadistic. However, if you think that you have something to gain by playing on, your opponent has no right to impugn your character for doing so.

I hope that makes you feel more at ease.


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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #12 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:46 pm 
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Splatted wrote:
"this game is no longer fun" is a perfectly valid reason for a resignation.

I totally agree. This is the best response in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #13 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:52 pm 
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When in doubt, don't resign. :)

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #14 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:49 pm 
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As a venerable British player likes to say "No one ever won a game by resigning".

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #15 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:14 pm 
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dfunkt wrote:
Splatted wrote:
"this game is no longer fun" is a perfectly valid reason for a resignation.

I totally agree. This is the best response in this thread.

Thanks! :D

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #16 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:13 pm 
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dfunkt wrote:
Splatted wrote:
"this game is no longer fun" is a perfectly valid reason for a resignation.

I totally agree. This is the best response in this thread.

Sounds reasonable, but unfortunately is against KGS policy, so before somebody starts doing it, please make sure you are ok.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #17 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:16 pm 
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I think that, generally speaking, to resign means "I don't see how I can win anymore so why waste time and prolong the agony."
So this is usually what I stick to. I resign when I can't think I can win anymore. Very simple. No fuss.

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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #18 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:12 am 
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Bantari wrote:
I think that, generally speaking, to resign means "I don't see how I can win anymore so why waste time and prolong the agony."
So this is usually what I stick to. I resign when I can't think I can win anymore. Very simple. No fuss.

I agree with this. Also, I think a beginner should never resign - unless they can confidently determine that their game has collapsed.

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Post #19 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:14 am 
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Hi Domer, the golden rule applies: don't do unto others what you would not want them do unto you.
One of the first things an insei learns is when to resign. So you ask a good question. As usual, you get the entire spectrum of replies here. Very helpful isn't it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: When to resign?
Post #20 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:45 am 
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I guess GO - as any other aspect of life - must be entwined with complicated politeness restrictions in Japan. But I don't think everything applies to western GO players too. Esp. if you play on the internet.

E.g: I like to play GO, so I play a game. I practically won the game but my opponent continues. I'm happy because I'm now playing an easy game and I like to play GO, remember? The thought that continuing to play would ever be considered rude is absurd to me.

Of course when they used to play a game through days and weeks that consideration would have more merit. But nowadays (unless time limits are so set that the opponent takes very long to play each move) it's not a big problem IMO.

Sometimes despite I know I'll lose I'm still curious about the final outcome.

Sometimes I want to take my chances and fight an uphill battle and see if I can win.

So you're a sandbagger? Now I'll take this opportunity to practice against a stronger player. Yes, endgame too :).

The only time resigning should be mandatory is with the "absolute" time setting IMO. But I never play that because I think that setting is flawed.

What I don't like is when they resign after scoring. But that's not a big deal either (unless the ranking system takes scoring into account which I'm not aware of).

Sure it may happen that one loses an "already won" game. But that just means that the game wasn't really won in reality. It once happened to me that my opponent didn't want to accept that L in the corner was dead. So we played it out and I forgot to eliminate KO threats beforehand so it lived and I lost. But at least I learned my lesson and I will not forget that again.

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