I havent posted on this site in a few years. The reason is simple. I take multiple year breaks from Go. As a result, I've been playing for probably 7 years and play at about 17k on a good day if I brush up my study. I say this not to discourage you, just to let you know that playing Go doesn't have to be a race.

I also play violin, and much like Go, my progress is slow.I will never be Hilary Hahn at violin. Much like I will never be Honinbo Shusaku at Go. And that's ok. I don't need to be.

It's important to remember that you have your entire life to play Go, if you want. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. Everyone has their own pace. If your pace is slower than those around you, there is no problem. Really all that matters is that whatever your skill is, you are having fun. At the end of the day, it's just a game about little black and white stones.

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Lose 1,000 games? Challenge Accepted.

Well I never play offline go games so I can't speak about that.
But as for online go anxiety I can hardly understand what may cause it other than rank obsession.
I've been there too. But try not to think about your rank as an achievement but rather a helping feature so that you can easily find partners for even games. If you drop by a stone or too, so what? Now you'll have better chance to actually win your games!
You may also switch off ranking at all (at least on KGS you can) that way fear for keeping your rank won't hold you back from playing.
The only time I'm anxious to play go is when I feel that I'm too sleepy / tired to play at my usual strength.
And finally, yes I've been struggling to improve my play so that I'd pass the 6k wall at last. But I want to improve my strength, not my rank. Thus it won't keep me from playing, because I know that the more I play the better chance I have to improve.
(Btw embarrassment has very little place in online play I think. They don't even see you, nor do they know who you are.)

You see yourself, though.

If you have anxiety, you're the worst one to judge your own actions. You'll always decide, with utmost certainty, that every little thing you said or did or neglected to do was badly done, evil, embarrassing in the extreme and you should just go away and never come back.

Exactly because you can't see anyone you play with, you don't have anything to go on to tell you it wasn't actually that bad. There's no reassurance of any kind.

A lot of people who play online don't even talk at all. Often because they don't know English, sometimes because they don't want to, and you never really know anything other than that this is a person playing against you. That's it.

You don't know how they feel about you, so you're left to decide for yourself if you come across as a decent player. The default case for a non-anxious person will generally be to think you're probably not too bad, otherwise people would complain. If you have anxiety, you'll never assume things are fine without any confirmation.

I suffer from anxiety generally as well and would have used alcohol in the past to survive social situations. I find it helps not to think of this as "Online Go Anxiety" because it's more likely to be an extension of your general anxiety and much of the advice specific to online go anxiety won't be much help to you. It's better to focus on the core anxiety and look into help with that, be it CBT or meditation techniques to help you relax.

Hi All,

Feels a little funny answering your post Virre, since this is my first ever post here, AND I'm extremely new to Go, but here goes anyway...

I'm MUCH MUCH better at chess than I am at Go, and can identify with what you're saying based on my years of chess playing.

I think 'setting the bar high' is a great thing. It drives us to study and to work hard at the board. It stops us from playing the first thing that comes into our head, or trying 'cheap shots' ("This move is great...IF my opponent doesn't see my threat!"

On the other hand, driving ourselves naturally means putting pressure on ourselves. It's this pressure (to play good Go, to look good (read to not look stupid , to play 'correctly' (like we see in books), to win, to improve our ranking, to give the opponent a good game...etc etc) that ends up bogging us down .

In a chessbook, I read the quote "Perfectionism is spelled P.A.R.A.L.Y.S.I.S..."


Obviously it's impossible for us to know exactly how you can reduce this anxiety...here are a few ideas...

- develop a 'playful mode'. Make a conscious decision about how you will play a game. "In this game I'm going to take lots of risks!" "In this game, I'm playing to learn how to kill groups/invade....etc" "This game is purely for me to learn"...

- remember that many players are quite happy to have an opponent that makes mistakes!

-after a game, pick out something you did REALLY well in that game (without worrying about the result).

-when you play a 'bad' move, realise that if you've really screwed up, then you have NO pressure left on you to win! enjoy the ride for the rest of the game (MUCH easier said than done, but a very useful mindset in competitive play in chess).

- (Going to need you Go players to say if this one could be true in Go, I don't have enough experience, but it FEELS right!) Some time back, I was drawn against a strong grandmaster in a friendly weekend chess tournament with fast time controls (60 minutes each for the game). After 30 moves the position looked about equal on the board (to me , but I only had 5 minutes left to finish the game, he had 55 left. After losing, we analysed the game together. At one point he told me "In calm positions like this, except for really obvious loves like recaptures, there is NO ONE REALLY BEST MOVE. You are working too hard at the wrong type of thinking. Try this next time you play...in calm positions don't play the 'best' move you find, play the second-best....at the end of the game you will probably see no difference in your playig strength." I HAVE tried it, and now tend to agree....and it removes a lot of pressure to find THE MOVE all the time.

-If it's the quality (or perceived lack of quality) of your games that is getting to you... then here's a fantastic video about how artists can deal with criticism of their work and pressure to perform. Remarkable! http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius

I see I've gone on for ages.....please just ignore the bits that sound too strange or inappropriate.

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Working on losing those 100 first games...one horrible fiasco at a time...

That is really interesting. And it rings true - I have abunch of problems, but one of them is definitely over-thinking "calm" positions trying to find the best possible move.

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Confucius in the Analects says "even playing go is better than eating chips in front of tv all day." -- kivi

(Quoting a chess grandmaster.)



First, go is generally a longer game than chess with finer gradations in results. If you play the second best move in calm positions in go, you could easily lose 1 stone in strength.

Second, one thing that Znosko-Borovsky said about chess also applies to go: "It is not a move, even the best move, that you must seek, but a realisable plan" (How Not to Play Chess). Make plans in calm positions. Then your plan will tell you where to play.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Thanks for your thoughts. Frankly, in my own experience, even a NON-realisable plan can make the difference. Working towards something gives a sense of coherence to moves even if your plan doen't get carried out on the board (because of pesky things like opponents .)

I feel that playing chess well often involves playing good, relevant multi-purpose moves for as long as they are productive and leaving the really commital ones until they are really needed.

I have no idea if that applies as well to Go, and would enjoy picking the two games apart to try to get a decent grip on Go, but perhaps better in another thread since I don't want to hijack this one.

_________________
Working on losing those 100 first games...one horrible fiasco at a time...

Hi,
I have been through this, though moderately. I think that there are several aspects in go anxiety.

One is the huge level difference between a complete beginner and an experienced player. At the beginning, I was worried about playing dead stones. A club player once told me that the last moves of my game were unuseful. I even remembered one of my very first games, where I eneded up playing several moves at the end of the yose, while my opponent kept passing. He seemed bored. I also remember being surprised reading some commented games, where I saw that one player should resign while the chuban didn't even start.
After that, I was worried during my other games. Am I wasting my opponent's time ? Should I resign now ? Am I playing dead stones ?
The rules were also a bit confusing. It was the beginning of the adoption of the AGA rule in France. I was thus asking for pass stones, but my opponents objected that there was no such thing as a "pass stone".

I came over this feeling playing lots of fast games versus the computer. Once I could see wether a group is dead or alive, and not miss an atari anymore, I was much more confident.


Another aspect is the oriental tradition associated with the game. It is considered as impolite to play the first move on the wrong side of the board, it is considered impolite to keep playing a lost game. Some even pretend that it is impolite to overplay.
Come on ! We're not in a zen temple ! Everyone plays according to his/her own level. A beginner can't see a lost game as soon as a professional player. Moreover, if the opponent is him/herself a beginner, going on is fully justified. A move considered as overplay by a good player can be a valid attack against a beginner player.


Last, a much more atavic aspect, rooted deep in the community, is the assumption that anyone should progress.
Why ? If a player can't devote a huge amount of time studying, but if he likes playing games from time to time against players of his own level, why should we judge that his level is "not good enough" ? Everyone has the right to enjoy playing games, and not everyone has the possibility, or vocation, to become a strong player.


Let's not forget that go is a game. I don't buy the "philosophy of life" that it is sometimes supposed to represent. It is just a fabulous, fantastic game !

Depends on what you mean by beginner. Trying utterly unreasonable kill attempts against a 20k really doesn't appeal to me. I'd view it as reading practice for a 15k though.

A lot of the more dedicated players like to dream of greatness in the nebulous future. A shared desire for self-improvement is always there in the background. I think it's also because there are so few players, that more casual board game fans don't pick up go at all and that leads to a lopsided environment.

But try playing casually with tournament chess players, and you'll see a similar pattern.



This also has to do with how a lot of players expect they will grow more dull and less able to compete if they play weaker opponents. It's a vivid phobia as far as I can tell. It's quite rare to see a strong player in a "humour the kids" mood, playing even games against 20k or worse, just for fun. Even handicap games are quite uncommon.

Then there's the endemic paranoia, that a lower rated player may in fact be a lot stronger, because it's a dastardly sandbagger. Just imagine if you lose imaginary internet points to one of these!

Yes. Znosko-Borovsky indicated as much, as I recall.



That applies to go, as well. Perhaps even more than chess, given the size of the go board. First, multi-purpose moves are at a definite premium in go, especially in the opening. Second, go has the concept of miai in which the choice of equal (or nearly equal) alternatives is left to the opponent, and you get the other one. Playing miai at the strategic level is in part a question of style, but plans in go are often disjunctive. And the options offered to the opponent may not be all that equal. Third, many moves at go are probes, played with the aim of getting the opponent to make a commitment to one alternative or another.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Sounds like an amateur game or commentator.



It is too bad that you did not get better treatment as a beginner.

Small rant:

Beginners play dead stones. No big deal.
Beginners should never resign. They learn by playing on, even if there is no chance of winning.
All games with beginners are teaching games. If that is a waste of your time, don't do it, or change your attitude.

An unfortunate side effect of written rules, I am afraid.



In Japan, where I believe that the custom of playing the first move in the top right corner evolved, if a Western beginner started off by playing somewhere else, most players would just shrug it off. They would not expect a Westerner to know Japanese etiquette. Those who did not shrug it off would simply tell the beginner about the choice of corners.



That's a Western thing.



That's ridiculous.



IMX, most players do make progress for eight to ten years. Whether they should or not. And most players want to progress. There is always something to learn. I have never observed anyone belittled because they did not progress.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

One of the things which keeps coming up, although quite rarely, is that one of the ways in which Japanese griefers try to put me down is by telling me that players like me don't know how to play, and that some random move proves how stupid I am.

A direct assault on self-confidence, which I assume wouldn't happen if it never worked.

One of the things they like to throw in to really drive it home is "people like you can't progress".

Other choice quotes from my encounters with Japanese griefers:

"Do you have any idea how rude it is to pretend you're X kyu?"
"Do you even know the rules?"
"Don't you think it's about time you gave up on go?"

The implication behind all of this is that lacking progress can really hurt a player's confidence.

on which server do you play? I have never encountered a rude japanese player, but if I did I would just tell them... "Ching chong chang, and then some other very rude stuff I can't write here because some people will get butthurt."

I've seen them on IGS and KGS. They only really try if I use a Japanese-sounding username, though.

And they do it in Japanese.

So you need to meet a few conditions, before they bother.

If they're convinced you're a barbarian from overseas, they'll just revert to the less elegant "YOU SUCK!" and a thesaurus of american expletives, not always used well.

My strong suspicion is that you're talking to teenagers or younger.

Well, that might be true, but I've had the misfortune of meeting people in their 40-60s who weren't acting their age at all.

Infantile behaviour has no age limit that I know of. Some people just get older, and skip mental maturity.

Blaming all griefing behaviour on young people seems a bit lazy, and unfair.

I don't play online, but I rather expect that such verbal abuse violates the TOSes of IGS and KGS.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

You most certainly meet adults who should know better behaving like this but if the age demographic for an activity online is lower you usually encounter more of this stuff.